Walter “Buck” Kennedy
Deacon Walter “Buck” Kennedy grew up in the Cherry neighborhood, but went to Second Ward School. Buck, as he liked to be called, joined Friendship in 1941 as a young boy. He was involved in the children’s choir and served as a Junior Deacon. He was also actively involved through the years in the Baptist Training Union (BTU) and can remember many of the Church leaders from Brooklyn and stories surrounding those individuals. Buck Kennedy was heavily involved in the music ministry and talked about the first radio broadcast from the Church over WGIV through the telephone lines. Mr. Kennedy was able to discuss the Boy Scouts and other functions for the youth of the Church.
Buck Kennedy also participated in a group interview with other members of Friendship Baptist Church.
Tape Log: Oral History Interview with Walter “Buck” Kennedy
Interviewed by Brian K. Alexander
|Description of Interview Contents
|Introduction by Brian Alexander
|Introduction by Mr. Walter (Buck) Kennedy
|Question: What are your fondest and earliest memories of Brooklyn?.Mr. Kennedy discusses the uniqueness of the Friendship Missionary.Baptist Church and how the church members looked out for one another..He talked about the Boy Scouts and Baptist Training Union, which helped.keep him out of trouble.
|Question: Tell me what sort of things you did in Brooklyn, where you.went and what you did, maybe other than the church?
|Question: Did you have relatives or friends that lived in Brooklyn?
|Question: Tell me about some of the African American businesses in.Brooklyn that you remember . . ..He discusses the doctors’ offices, funeral homes, in particular Alexander.Funeral Home (which his family still uses), restaurants and drugstores (on.Second Street), barbershops.
|Question: Were these businesses owned by African Americans or were.they owned by whites?.He says these businesses were owned by African Americans.
|Question: Were there any white-owned businesses in Brooklyn during the.time?
|Question: What kind of occupation did you have during this time period?
|Question: What sort of impressions do you have about the people that.were in Brooklyn as far as the things that they did as occupations or where.they worked?.He says many worked outside the community but others owned their own.businesses in the Brooklyn community, which made him proud. “That.was something to see the black man own his own business like that. By.me being young, because when we was coming up we didn’t see that.”
|Question: Do you remember why you and your family chose to go to.Friendship Baptist Church?.They met some people in Fairview Homes who asked them to go with.them. The only reason they could go was because their neighbors had a.car.
|Question: Can you tell me a little bit more about WGIV?.They would broadcast Reverend Kerry over the phone on WGIV every.Sunday.
|Question: Can you describe the nature of the area where the church.building stood, and tell about the businesses that may have around it or the.neighbors that may have been around it and how you interacted with them.or how church interacted with them?.He speaks of a gas station and sandwich shop that stood nearby owned by.Bishop Dale where he would go and spend his money for church. Bishop.Dale would not allow them to spend all their money.
|Question: How did Friendship Baptist Church interact with the Brooklyn.community? Did the church reach out to the community and if so, how do.you remember that happening?.“The community and the church worked hand and hand with each.other and help each other like that.”
|Question: When the church moved to NW Junior High School and then.moved over here to Beatties Ford Road, why did your family decide to.stay with the church? Was there any exodus at all from the church during.that time or did everybody just decide that they were going to follow the.church wherever it went?.He says there was no where else to go because urban renewal was tearing.everything down in Brooklyn.
|Question: Are there other groups within the church that were important to.you and can you tell me why they were important to you?
|Question: Can you tell me about what the Junior Deacons did?.He says they gathered on the fourth Sunday of the month, which was.children Sunday. The Junior Deacons took the place of the regular.deacons, and he remembers praying in front of the church.
|Question: Can you tell me what kind of activities that the Boy Scouts . . ..that you participated in with the Boy Scouts and was there was any.community activity during that time with the Boy Scouts?
|Question: When the church body learned it had to leave Brooklyn and the.church would be torn down, what sorts of things did the church do in.response?.“After we found out that we had to leave from Brooklyn, we did a thirty.day continuous service. That’s what the church did. And what we did was.go back to beginning of the church. And we did what we call a play, thirty.days of continuous service. And that’s where we started out like the.church from the beginning and came out to the present during that time..And it was just praying and worshipping.”
|Question: Can you tell me how you felt during that time . . . what the.feelings were about that thirty day service and having to move?.He says it was very sad because they did not have any place to move.
|Question: Can you tell me why your church, Friendship, was unlike other.churches in Brooklyn community and was able to hold together and move.together and actually continue to grow because other churches seem to.splinter in the area?.He says they had a good leader and that Reverend Kerry was a visionary.and would not lead them astray. He was a man of God that they needed to.follow.
|Question: What opinion did Reverend Kerry hold on what was happening.with urban renewal and the removal of the church? Do you think that his.opinion affected the ways in which the congregation reacted to the move?.He thinks that they all knew it was a negative move, but Reverend Kerry.talked about it as positive so that they could move forward. He.emphasized no dwelling on the past. He was in the forefront leading the.church for the move.
|Question: Looking back, what things do you miss about the old church in.Brooklyn?
|Question: What aspects of the new church today here do you think are.better or worse than the old church?
|Question: Having lived in so many different other places, . . . can you tell.what the response was from the communities that you lived in, that you.can remember, either from you parents or neighbors or friends to the.demolition of another African American like Brooklyn..He says there was a lot of talk. Brooklyn residents had to move to these.other African American areas. They lost their businesses because they had.no where to go and they had to become like everyone else.
|Question: So, was there any fear that the same thing was going to happen.to the areas that you lived in?.He believes there was no fear in the other communities about urban.renewal coming to them. He saw it as connected to the downtown and.business area.
|Question: Despite its physical removal, do you think of Brooklyn as a.community still, and can you describe what you think Brooklyn means to.you today?.“There’s no Brooklyn . . . There’s no Brooklyn now.”
|Question: When you hear the term urban renewal, what does that mean to.you?.He says it is like tearing down and moving out.
|Question: Considering all that you know now, was the decision to.revitalize the Brooklyn community, in the way that it was done, was that a.good decision or a bad decision, and why do you think that may be?.He says he gets emotional when he thinks about that time. So many.blacks lost their homes and their businesses, and it did not have to happen.that way. He thinks that the decision was very wrong. They could have.built the city around some of the historical sites of Brooklyn.
|Question: Do you know if your church had any dealings with the.politicians to try and save the church?.He says Reverend Kerry talk with people to try and save the church.
|Question: Can you tell me if the fact that I’m male or white or that I’m a.university student if that affects any of the answers that you may give to.me.
|Thank you and closing
Friendship Baptist Church
March 26, 2004
BA: Brian K. Alexander (Interviewer)
WK: Walter (Buck) Kennedy (Interviewee)
Start of Compact Disk
BA: Today is March 26, 2004, and this is an interview with Mr. Walter Kennedy. This interview is conducted inconjunction with the Oral History class of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte under the direction of Dr.Karen Flint. My name is Brian Alexander, and I am acting as mediator today at Friendship Baptist Church forsaid interview. First, Mr. Kennedy, will you please introduce yourself? Tell me where you were born, where yougrew up, and any general information about yourself you want to give us.
WK: Well, I am Walter Kennedy, nickname is Buck, everybody know me by Buck. I grew up in Fairview Homes,that’s where I was grown. After I left Fairview Homes we moved over to the west side, which was northwest,that’s where I went to school at Northwest Junior High School. From northwest we came up to West Charlotteand we moved into University Park. And from then on, I still on the west side of town.
BA: OK, What are your fondest and earliest memories of Brooklyn?
WK: [Pause] I remember when I was a young boy over at Friendship Baptist Church, [Pause] the uniqueness of thechurch that we had, that everybody was so close to each other, and if someone was sick or something like thatthere was always someone that’d help them out and as a young boy, coming up, we had all these programs to keepus out of trouble and Boy Scouts, we always go to what we call the BTU. The BTU was the Baptist TrainingUnion and we go to church in the morning, and we would stay there all day until that night service. I rememberthat very fondly especially when we had to go in, somewhere to eat and the lady use to bring food to the church sowe can eat. And sometimes we would go down the street to lady’s house named Miss Ligon, Miss Daisy Ligon,we used to go to her house and have dinner with her daughter and son. They would invite us down so, that’s someof the memories I had of Brooklyn over there.
BA: OK, Since you didn’t live in Brooklyn, and you said some of these things, tell me what sort of things you did inBrooklyn, where you went and what you did, maybe other than the church.
WK: Well, went to the movie theatre, went to the Lincoln theatre. I remember going there with my cousin. He lived inThouroughwagh and we would go the Lincoln Theatre. And just go out there stand on the, stand on the street andwatch people. It was amazing to see so many people, in that area like that.
BA: OK, Did you have relatives or friends that lived in Brooklyn?
WK: No, I didn’t have any.
BA: Didn’t have any relatives or friends?
BA: Tell me about some of the African American businesses in Brooklyn that you remember and whether you usedthese, I’m, I’m not familiar with how close these, that the area that you lived in is to Brooklyn, so, tell me if youused those or if you used, out, if you went shopping or things like that outside of Brooklyn.
WK: Yes, well, over in Brooklyn, you had a lot of the doctor’s office, the funeral homes, Alexander’s Funeral Homewas in particular that we always used, my family, and we still do, and they had restaurants and drug stores overthere on Second St. in all kind of little places along there, people that owned their own barber shops, stuff likethat. I remember all that.
BA: Now, were these business, were they owned by African Americans or were they owned by whites?
WK: No, they’s owned by African Americans.
BA: They were owned by African Americans?
WK: Yes, yes.
BA: Were there any white owned business in Brooklyn during the time do you know?
WK: I can’t remember, but I think there was a couple, but I can’t remember who, what.
BA: OK. tell me, tell me, well what. You said you did not go to school in Brooklyn, right? What kind of occupationdid you have when you, during this time period. Cause you were, I know you were young.
WK: Yeah, I was young, well I.
BA: When you were going.
WK: The only thing I did was carry papers during that time cause I was living on, over in Biddleville area and then theFairview Homes. So, I, that’s the only occupation I was, you know.
BA: OK. What sort of impressions do you have about the people that were in Brooklyn, as far as, the things that theydid as occupations or where they, where they worked. Did they work in the community or did they work outsidethe community?
WK: Well, you had a lot that worked outside the community, over into the Myers Park area, doing housework and stufflike that, but you had a lot of blacks in Brooklyn that owned their own business and so they was very proud and Iwas, you know that was something to see, the black man own his own business like that and by me being young,because when we was coming up, we didn’t see that. But after go through Brooklyn and Biddleville and stuff likethat, you would see all of that.
BA: OK. So it was basically only in those communities that you were seeing . . .
WK: That, that’s.
BA: Black owned businesses?
WK: Yeah, because that’s only where I could go.
BA: Yeah. I know you attended Friendship Baptist Church while it was located in Brooklyn. Do you remember whyyou and your family chose, especially since you didn’t live in that, in, in Brooklyn itself, why you chose thisparticular church to go to?
WK: Well, like I said, we used to live in First Ward with my mother and her brother. And we used to go to Little Rock.After we left there we moved to Biddleville, I mean to Fairview Homes, so we met this couple living in the backof us, Miss Tatum, and they would say why don’t you come and go to church with us. And so, he had a car that’sonly the way we could get, and he was a deacon at the church, Deacon Elvin Tatum. And so, Deacon Tatumwould take us to church in the morning and so we started going and my mother started going and we listened toReverend Kerry on the radio and we always thought he was a old man but until we found out he wasn’t an oldman, his voice was just like that. [Laughter] And so, that’s how we started going to Friendship. We just fell inlove with it, everybody treat us so nice.
BA: So, you heard Reverend Kerry on the radio?
WK: On the radio.
BA: Was this the WGIV?
WK: WGIV at that time, every Sunday morning, a broadcast live from the church.
BA: Every Sunday, huh? Can you tell me a little bit more about WGIV, cause you were involved in that, right? Atsome point with singing. Is that right? Where you would, I, seems like I recall you saying in the first interviewwhere you and Sister McGill would sing into a telephone? Is that correct? [Laughter]
WK: No, no, we would, I was , I wasn’t singing on the choir at that time.
BA: OK. OK.
WK: But that’s where they would record it over the telephone from the church to the station.
BA: Oh, really.
WK: Yes, that’s how they would record.
BA: Huh, OK.
WK: But, my mother used to sing on the choir.
BA: Did she?
WK: Yeah. She, they had the choir there, the senior choir, and they was the broadcast choir, the first broadcast choirfrom Friendship.
BA: OK. All right. Can you describe the nature of the area where the church building stood, and tell about thebusinesses that may have around it or the neighbors that may have been around it and how you interacted withthose or the church interacted with those?
WK: Well, right there on the corner First and Brevard, I remember across the street was a produce company and aconcrete company. But on First there right round the corner from Brevard it was residents and of course they hada couple buildings that had doctor’s office in it. And on the corner was a place called Bishop Dale. He had a littlesandwich shop and gas station place there where would take our money from church go over there and spend it.
WK: But he wouldn’t let us spend it all, he said to be sure to put some of it in the plate. [Laughter]
BA: Right. [Laughter]
WK: But, it was a neighborhood area where the church was located at.
BA: How did Friendship Baptist Church interact with the Brooklyn community? [Long Pause] How did you see, did,did the church reach out to the community? And if so, how do you remember that happening?
WK: By me being so young, I just, you know, that didn’t even play a part in me thinking about that.
BA: Uh-huh. OK.
WK: [Pause] During that time I was only 11 years old.
WK: When I, you know. But after I got up some size, you know, you could see things like, different things, how thecommunity and the church worked hand and hand with each other. And helped each other along like that.
BA: OK. Now, when the church moved to NW Junior High School.
BA: And then moved over here to Beatties Ford Road, why did your family decide to stay with the church? Wasthere, was there any exodus at all from the church during that time or did everybody just decide that they weregoing to follow the church wherever it went?
WK: I think everybody decided to go where the church go cause where else could you go? There was no where, causethey was tearing up everything out in Brooklyn.
WK: Urban renewal was moving everything out and so why go somewhere else? There was no where else to go soeverybody stay with Friendship and of course it grew.
WK: The church grew as it got moved out from there, where we was at.
BA: Now you say that it grew and it seems like you’d said that it about that time and during the first interview thatthere were about 400 or 500 members and then it just grew enormously as it went to the junior high school andthen here.
WK: Yes, yes.
BA: Do you know where the people were coming from, I mean, where, where were these people coming from?
WK: From this.
BA: That were coming in.
WK: Yeah. Most of them was coming from this side of town.
WK: Because they had the most population of the church was from this area and then, that’s where most of them camefrom.
BA: OK. Now you’ve mentioned the Boy Scouts and you mentioned the BTU.
BA: Are there other groups within the church that were important to you and can you tell me why they wereimportant?
WK: Well, the other groups were missionaries, which I didn’t. There was the Ladies Auxiliary. And of course, we hadthe Junior Choir, that was very important to us and we was.
BA: Were you member of the Junior Choir?
WK: I was a member of the Junior Choir. You know, then we had Junior Deacons.
WK: And I was a Junior Deacon at the church.
BA: Can you tell me about what the Junior Deacons did?
WK: The Junior Deacon was just like being a regular deacon but you was on the fourth Sundays, that’s the, that’s thetime you had the opportunity to say the prayer.
WK: Or whatever you had to do that morning that the big deacons did. And you know, it was children’s Sunday.
BA: It was children’s Sunday?
WK: So we was Junior Deacons.
BA: OK. So how old were you at that time, when you were a Junior Deacon?
WK: I must have been about 13 or 14.
BA: 13 or 14? OK. [Pause] Did you, as a Junior Deacon, were you, did you go out to other churches and do things orwas this just a.
WK: This was just in, in church, just in church for the Junior Deacons, yes,
WK: Just for in church.
BA: OK. You mentioned the Boy Scouts. Can you tell me what kind of activities that the Boy Scouts, that youparticipated in with the Boy Scouts, and was there any community activity during that time with the Boy Scouts?
WK: Only thing I remember about the Boy Scouts, when we had our meetings, that we were, [Pause] we hadopportunity to tie knots and listen to stories and stuff like this here and just, just general fun, fun time with the,with the other young mens in the Boy Scouts that was there.
WK: But we didn’t go out [Pause] camping or nothing like that.
BA: OK. Do you know, I mean, that’s a big staple of Boy Scouts today.
BA: Do you know why that didn’t happen during that time?
BA: Or was it just different?
WK: It just different during that time and I don’t think, I don’t know for sure but I just think, don;t think that, you eitherdidn’t have the money to go out and do those things. It wasn’t together like it is now.
WK: During that time.
BA: OK. Do you have any funny stories that you can think of or any one particular event while you were in BoyScouts that you can remember that.
WK: I can’t remember nothing. [Laughter]
WK: Lot times couldn’t tie those knots. [Laughter].
BA: [Laughter]. All right. Now we have been doing some research and found out that some Boy Scouts troops were,during urban renewal, were actually out and doing demolition in some of the urban renewal areas. Do you everremember, I know your Boy Scout troop probably didn’t do that, but did you ever think, hear about that or see thathappening?
WK: I never did, I never did.
BA: OK. When the church body learned that it had to leave Brooklyn
BA: And the church would be torn down, what sorts of things did the church do in response?
WK: After we found out we had to leave Brooklyn, we did a thirty day continuous service.
WK: That’s what the church did. And what we did was go back to beginning of the church. And we did what we call aplay, thirty days of continuous service. And that’s where we [Pause] started out like from the church from thebeginning and came out to the present during that time.
WK: And it was just praying and worshipping, doing this here.
BA: Can you tell me how you felt during that time? What, what the feelings were about that thirty day service andhaving to move?
WK: Yes. Personally, it was, it was very sad to me because I know we was being uprooted and we didn’t haveanywhere to go. And so, there was, to me it was just a sad moment but after you got into your thirty days and findout where you come from, then you had this idea of where you was going to go and so, things got better.
BA: [Pause] After the move, well, you, let’s see I think I’ve already covered this. Can you tell me why your church,Friendship, was unlike other churches in Brooklyn community and was able to hold together? And move togetherand actually continue to grow, cause other churches seem to splinter in the area.
WK: Well, some church split and some didn’t. Some church wasn’t as large as Friendship during that time so that’s,you know. But, I, Friendship was always a church that helped each other and once, I don’t know, I guess it wasjust committed to Friendship because that’s why my family felt, and, we was, we had a good leader, Coleman W.Kerry, he was a good leader and so, you know, why go somewhere else. But things, we know things going to getbetter and he was a visionary. He could envision what was going on and we figured he couldn’t lead us astraybecause he was a man of God.
BA: OK. Now my next question actually has to do with Reverend Kerry.
BA: What opinion did Reverend Kerry hold on what was happening with urban renewal and the removal of the churchand do you think his opinion affected the ways in which the congregation reacted to the move?
WK: What’s your saying is what he,
BA: What, what was he, during this time, what was he saying to the church about urban renewal and the destruction ofBrooklyn. Was he, did he hold a positive, did he think this was a positive move or did he think it was a negativemove and how did that affect how people in the church reacted to that?
WK: Well I, I think that we all know it was a negative move but we had to be positive with it because we know theywas going to tear it down and there was no where else for us to go so he talked positive about it that we needed tomove forward.
WK: Let’s not dwell on the past, let’s move forward to what we got.
WK: And so, the deacons and trustees went out looking for land and stuff like this for us and of course pastor, pastorKerry was right there in the forefront leading us.
WK: But, yes it was a negative move but we had a positive outlook on life.
BA: So you think that his leadership was.
WK: His, yes.
BA: Part of what helped.
WK: Kept us.
WK: Keep going.
BA: Keep going and keep the church together?
WK: That’s correct.
BA: We had mentioned in another interview that Friendship Baptist Church had the opportunity to buy land or at least,buy land in Brooklyn and possibly build another building. Do you remember anything about that or why theydecided, maybe, why they decided not to buy land in Brooklyn?
WK: I can’t remember nothing like that because they were moving everything out of Brooklyn.
BA: OK. OK. Looking back, what things do you miss about the old church in Brooklyn?
WK: [Long Pause] I got to miss something. [Laughter]. Oh, I, I think I miss mostly about the old church in Brooklynwas growing up in that church and the older deacons, how I used to look up to them [Pause] and now I’m up inage and I think that some of the younger deacons look up to me. [Laughter]. But I, I, I do really miss growing upin Friendship Missionary Baptist Church. It wasn’t Missionary then. It was just Friendship Baptist Church.
BA: When, do you know when that changed?
WK: Yeah, it changed when we got up here. Because it came a missions church.
BA: OK. And before, did, you did missions before that right?
WK: Yes, but it wasn’t like we were doing now.
BA: It was.
WK: See they had a.
BA: It was more focused once you moved here.
WK: It got more focus.
BA: And what aspects of the new church, today, here, do you think are better or worse than the old church?
WK: [Long Pause]. Let’s see. [Long Pause] Well, we have a lot more programs going on now in the new church thanwe did at the old church. And not this church is [Pause] long time ago, we used to have all kind of little, what wecall missionary groups, where pastor aid and this and that and that and this and they’d sell food and stuff like this.We don’t do that now. We’re a tithing church. And that’s the main focus of this church, is tithing.
BA: Why, why do you see that as so important as opposed to the other way.
WK: Well, we was doing, some people was tithing back in the other days but now, you’re giving back a portion of whatyou earn to the Lord and now we can see that it do work, tithing do work.
BA: [Pause] Can you tell me about all the things you did before tithing? What sorts of things you did to raise money?
WK: To raise money, there was, sell and have fish fries and stuff like this here and then there we were going collectmoney and sometimes big money for this and that. We don’t do that anymore.
BA: [Pause] Having lived in so many different other places, in West Charlotte and Fairview Homes, University Park,can you tell what the response was from the communities that you lived in, that you can remember, either fromyou parents or neighbors or friends to the demolition of another African American like Brooklyn.
WK: Well, a lot, a lot of people saying about it. And they had to be moved out, they was uprooted, they had businessesover there, and they was just uprooted and where can you go? They didn’t know where to go so they started tomoving out to these other areas and so, and then, your business, you, you couldn’t buy no land or nothing like thatto have a business so your business just failed and so you just had to become living like everybody else.
BA: OK. So was there any fear that the same thing was going to happen to the areas that you lived in, do you know.
WK: No I, don’t think there was any fear of that. I think that they was just trying to get down there so they could makea bigger downtown. See that’s where downtown is, Brooklyn. See. [Pause] But one thing I was, well I hate to saythis. I was mad about. Cut this off.[Mr. Kennedy asked to stop the recording for a few seconds.]
BA: No problem. Despite its physical removal, do you think of Brooklyn as a community still, and can you describewhat you think Brooklyn means to you today?
WK: There’s no Brooklyn.
BA: No Brooklyn?
WK: There’s no Brooklyn now. [Pause] All they have over there is just the memories.
BA: [Pause] When you hear the term urban renewal, what does that mean to you?
WK: Tearing down and moving you out.
BA: [Long Pause] Considering all that you know now, was the decision to revitalize the Brooklyn community, in theway that it was done, was that a good decision or a bad decision, and why do you think that may be?
WK: Well I think it was a bad decision.
WK: When they could have revitalize it, but they have to tear down everything because a lot of black folks lost theirbusiness, churches had to be uprooted. I think that was very wrong and I, sometimes when I think about it I get alittle emotional because so much stuff happened like that and it didn’t have to, didn’t have to. Because they couldbuild the city around some of that historic stuff, you know. They could have included some of it. I’m, I’m notsaying all of it, but they could have included some of it.
BA: So, what, what do you think, do you think that politicians today have taken any of that to heart, cause even thoughit isn’t called urban renewal maybe today it’s, it’s, this, this sort of thing is still happening.
WK: Yeah, they’re still annexing, what I call it now, they still doing that.
BA: And do you think they’ve learned any lessons from the past, things like Brooklyn?
WK: I don’t know. I really don’t. Because I, I, I just, I just don’t know they’ve learned anything or not because they’restill doing things that they shouldn’t be doing, but they, politicians.
BA: Do you know if your church had any, any dealings with the politicians during that time to try and save the church.Would you remember that or would you know that?
WK: Well, I know Pastor Kerry was always talking to people trying to make, so, so we could stay there. But thingsdidn’t work out, they, they already had their mind made up to what they was going to do over there in Brooklyn.
BA: OK. Can you tell me a little bit, were trying to in this oral history class, participating in an oral history class, werereally interested in the interaction between interviewee and interviewer. Can you tell me if the fact that I’m maleor white or that I’m a university student if that affects any of the answers that you may give to, to me.
WK: No. None , none whatsoever. Say I, I want this to go out, should, should hear it cause this is history. You shouldhear stuff like this. You know where you come from and what’s happening. It’s no effect between you and me.
BA: OK. That’s good to know. Well, that’s all the questions that I have for you today. I really appreciate you takingthe time to come out and be with us today.End of Interview
Approximately 26:15 minutes