James Black
section: Interviews
James Black was born in Brooklyn in 1942 and was a resident of the community until 1952, although he has extended family that stayed in Brooklyn through the urban renewal period. His life reflects the importance of the Brooklyn community structure, especially the guidance given to the members of the United House of Prayer for All People. In this interview, Mr. Black expresses his admiration for the role that the House of Prayer had in the community and remembers aspects of the daily operations of the church, such as businesses that operated out of the church and details of the services. In addition, Mr. Black remembers fondly the high expectations that were set for him by his parents and family, and recalls the role of the community in rearing a child. The neighborhood garden in which Mr. Black worked as a child is one manifestation of this community spirit. Mr. Black has certainly exceeded the expectations of his family and neighbors, first as a groundbreaking African-American professional golfer and currently as the founder of a non-profit organization that uses the game of golf to teach valuable life skills to at-risk children.
Tape Log
Tape Log: Oral History Interview with James Black
Interviewed on Tuesday, March 27, 2007
Interviewed by Jennifer K. Payne
Interviewed for the Brooklyn to Biddleville Oral History Project
| Time | Description of Interview Contents |
|---|---|
| 0 | Beginning of interview. Introduction. What was the community of Brooklyn like? Neighborhood schools: Myers Street School, Second Ward High School, Carver College. House of Prayer: history and facilities, summer programs, Queen City Classic, House of Prayer peace parade, multiracial ministers, Daddy Grace, financial structure of the House of Prayer. |
| 5 | House of Prayer: services (frequency and type), role of young people, scholarship programs, Daddy Grace, how was the House of Prayer perceived by the community, attempts to discredit the House of Prayer. Black’s childhood home on 2nd Street: amenities. |
| 10 | Brooklyn as a slum? Dangers of living in Brooklyn. 2nd Street: residential vs. commercial sections. African- American owned businesses in Brooklyn. Extant landmarks and businesses. Businesses housed in the House of Prayer. Musical programs at the House of Prayer. |
| 15 | Musical programs at the House of Prayer. Services at the House of Prayer. Programs for children at the House of Prayer. Black’s family- how did he define family in Brooklyn? |
| 20 | Childhood chores in Brooklyn. Community garden. Mr. Black’s mother: career as a seamstress and cook. Women as entrepreneurs in Brooklyn. Mr. Black’s father. The family’s move to Southside Homes in 1952. Improvements over Brooklyn community. Urban renewal: identity of the Brooklyn community. |
| 25 | Urban Renewal and community identity. Significant businesses in Brooklyn. Positive side of urban renewal. Vocational education. |
| 30 | Vocational education and economic growth. Legacy of the Brooklyn community: the modern House of Prayer. |
| 35 | The modern House of Prayer. Community and the House of Prayer. The House of Prayer as the foundation of Mr. Black’s successful career. |
| 40 | Mr. Black’s career as a golfer and his experiences teaching professional golfers. |
| 45 | Mr. Black’s career as a golf teacher. Mr. Black’s civic awards. |
Transcript
James Black
James Black
Interviewed at West Boulevard Public Library, Charlotte, North Carolina
March 26, 2007
Interviewer: Payne, Jennifer
Transcription completed: July 2007
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Editor: Karen Flint
Title: Interview with James Black
Keywords [subject]:
Description [abstract]: Mr. James Black was born in Brooklyn in 1942 and was a resident of the community until 1952, although he has extended family that stayed in Brooklyn through the urban renewal period. His life reflects the importance of the Brooklyn community structure, especially the guidance given to the members of the United House of Prayer for All People. In this interview, Mr. Black expresses his admiration for the role that the House of Prayer had in the community and remembers aspects of the daily operations of the church, such as businesses that operated out of the church and details of the services. In addition, Mr. Black remembers fondly the high expectations that were set for him by his parents and family, and recalls the role of the community in rearing a child. The neighborhood garden in which Mr. Black worked as a child is one manifestation of this community spirit. Mr. Black has certainly exceeded the expectations of his family and neighbors, first as a groundbreaking African-American professional golfer and currently as the founder of a non-profit organization that uses the game of golf to teach valuable life skills to at-risk children.
Contributor: James Black
Interview Date: March 26, 2007
Format: WAV (49 minutes, nine seconds)
Identifier: [file number]
Coverage: Brooklyn, Charlotte, North Carolina, 1940s-1960s
Interviewer: Jennifer Payne
Recorder (if different than interviewer): Dawn Funk
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Participant description:
Age: 66
Birth date: 1942
Birth location: Brooklyn, Charlotte, North Carolina
Residence: Charlotte, North Carolina
Education: Second Ward High School
Occupation(s): Golf Professional
Setting Description: West Boulevard Public Library, Charlotte, North Carolina
JP: Jennifer Payne
JB: James Black
JP: This is Jennifer Payne. Today is March 27, 2007, and I’m here interviewing Mr. James Black for the Brooklyn Oral History Project in conjunction with UNC-Charlotte Department of History and Atkins Library Special Collections. Good morning, Mr. Black. Thank you for coming today.
JB: Good morning.
JP: We’ve talked a little bit about some of your history in Brooklyn, and I’d like to take an opportunity just to sort of get your ideas about what it was like growing up in Brooklyn. What was the community like?
JB: Well, it was a close-knitted community. And it was always awareness and caring and it was a lot of interest in people learning to learn coming up in Brooklyn. And that was one of the most important parts of it, it was the educational part. We had schools right at us, such as Myers Street and Second Ward, coming up in Brooklyn. So, you know, it was, it was very important. And see, they also had at Second Ward Carver College, coming out as a vocational school where you can learn trades. So, that was, that was our community.
JP: And so, in some ways the community was centered around these schools. Was it also centered around families, churches, social clubs?
JB: Well, it was, it was also- not so much the social club. It was, it was centered more around churches and the schools are like- now, they had several different churches in the community. They had the House of Prayer, which is one of the most important parts of the community because it came from sawdust to where it is today, from a tent, really, to where it is today. And I was blessed to be a part of – both families have been a member from the beginning back in 1926. My grandmother and- on my father’s side and my grandmother on my mother’s side, and all the rest of the family on both sides became a member of the United House of Prayer. So, that was a big stepping stone for our family, because that organization had things for us to do. We had the only swimming pool in Charlotte on that side of town, on the east side of town. Or the west side of town. There was nothing but two swimming pools. That was Sunset Park and the House of Prayer. So, and then we had Bible School there and we had our summer programs at the House of Prayer. The House of Prayer had one of the biggest events that ever been in this city. And there was nothing but two big events for Afro-Americans or Negroes. That was the Queen City Classic, and that was football between Second Ward and West Charlotte, and the House of Prayer Parade. American Grace Peace Parade. And you had, that was one of the biggest. That parade was just as big as the Christmas Carousel Parade. And that was amazing to see people come together for that parade, all colors of people. There was a coalition there. And see, and the other thing about the House of Prayer, we had white ministers in the House of Prayer, see? So, that was, that was amazing. We have always had white ministers, you know, and people think that Daddy Grace was a Negro, an African-American, but he wasn’t. He was not.
JP: Really?
JB: He was from Portugal.
JP: Oh, I didn’t know that. That is very, very interesting.
JB: He was not. And see, that’s history itself, you know? So, he established the United House of Prayer for All People and, and I waited till I got grown to really understand that part of the organization. It don’t knock anybody, [Mr. Black thumping on the table]. It don’t make no difference who you are, what you are.
JP: Right.
JP: It’s, you got all kind of people in the House of Prayer.
JP: Right
JB: So, it’s for all people.
JP: So, it really was accepting of all ethnicities, all backgrounds, all income levels?
JB: Yes, that’s right, that’s right. All what.
JP: Right.
JB: And that’s what it is, so.
JP: Right.
JB: And that’s what made that house, that organization the greatest Negro or colored or black organization in the United States. It is the greatest of all of them because it is mortgage-free.
JP: That’s a great point. Actually, that‘s very, very interesting.
JB: And see, it’s united. It’s all over the United States and it has its own housing development and things like that, so it has been big in all communities throughout the United States, not just in Charlotte, but it’s been a big important part. And we are the, one of the only organizations in the United States that never used tax dollars.
JP: How about that? How about that?
JB: So that is history.
JP: Well…
JB: That is very important. That we have never used any federal money to build our housing or anything.
JP: And it goes back to the learn to learn that you were talking about.
JB: Learn to learn.
JP: This idea in the community that everybody in the community worked together…
JB: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right.
JP: … to make things happen, right? How, when you went to the services at the House of Prayer, what, when would you go during the week? How many times would you have services…
JB: Seven days a week.
JP: Seven days a week?
JB: That was mandatory to go seven days a week…
JP: Wow.
JB: ..and see, and I remember on Long Street, we had to water down the shavings because it would be like clouds in there when people get to marching and shouting, you know. It was a place to go to let that frustration out. And then, you know, all the kids, it was always something to do. I don’t know whether you have ever been in the House of Prayer or been around the House of Prayer…
JP: I have not.
JB: It thrives on young people. And you’ll see that that organization believes in young people. And see, it has a scholarship foundation that they don’t have to pay a nickel, as long as this organization exists, this, this organization have enough money in, in the scholarship foundation to last the rest of its life there, you know?
JP: That’s awesome.
JB: And it’s open for all people. See, it’s, it’s again, it goes back to the United House of Prayer for All People. It don’t make no difference what color can apply for the scholarship money there in the United House of Prayer. Only organization that has that.
JP: That’s fantastic. You know, I’ve heard a lot of contradicting opinions about Daddy Grace himself. Some people say that he’s this wonderful man that brought the community together and other people may say that he’s kind of a grandstander, right?
JB: Well, your work is your evidence. And so, to bring an organization together from pennies to where it is today, and, you can be proud of it. Sure, we was made fun of in our own community. I’ve never known white people to make fun of our organization. There were black people making fun of our organization. But when the summertime come and we opened our pools, everybody was in the pool, [JP laughs] the ones that was making fun of it. I remember that, it was a bunch of kids, we said, “ Well, we going to drown some of these kids that made fun of us during the year when the pool opens.” So, Daddy Grace got a, you know a little whiff of that, and before we opened up the pool, he said, “Those kids have as much right in that pool as anybody. It’s the House of Prayer for All People.” So, then I learned, I knew how important the House of Prayer was.
JP: Right, right. To bring people together.
JB: Yeah, so when they stopped talking, then that’s when everybody would stop worrying. So the constructive criticism didn’t do nothing to make the House of Prayer what is the greatest African-American organization in the United States.
JP: Right, right.
JB: And people, well, you know, the devil is there, and they could never find a fault with the leadership of the United House of Prayer. You can look in all other organizations. There is no spot or wrinkle with the leadership of the United House of Prayer. We have one leader. So there’s never been any scandals when it comes to the leadership of the United House of Prayer.
JP: And it sounds like they understand, too, that they’re responsible to the congregation, right?
JB: That, they are.
JP: To keep this, you know, it’s original mission.
JB: Now, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s, yeah, see, if, if we didn’t have great leadership and the bylaws in the constitution that stands up for that organization it’d have been crumbled down because you’ve got members, you got ministers in there to try to bring it down. And they couldn’t. They tried to fight it. The House of Prayer never lost a battle in court.
JP: Wow.
JB: Never.
JP: How about that?
JB: Never lost one.
JP: That is really something. What about, well, first, why don’t you tell me where you lived in Brooklyn when you were growing up.
JB: I lived on Second Street. 1024 East Second Street. [laughs]
JP: And what kind of house was that that you grew up in?
JB: It was a duplex, like a shotgun. You could see straight through it.
JP: And, did you have, this was, you were born in 1942 and you lived in Brooklyn until 1966. No, I’m sorry, 1952.
JB: No, 1952.
JP: You moved out.
JB: Yes.
JP: So, what kind of amenities did you have in your house at that time? Did you have electricity, did you have indoor plumbing?
JB: We had electricity, we had electricity. We didn’t have any plumbing. All the plumbing was out in the back.
JP: And, so, how would you characterize the neighborhood of Brooklyn in terms of the buildings that were in it? You know, a lot of people when they talk about Brooklyn, they claim that it was this slum, it was a blighted area. But we’ve seen evidence that there were a lot of very, you know, viable businesses, and, you know, middle-class housing and this sort of thing. How would you characterize it?
JB: Well, time, time. Charlotte is one of the most cleanest cities in the United States. So, if you went through the United States, Charlotte was really not what you’d say a slum. Because what we had to do as kids coming up, we couldn’t let a spring of grass grow in our yard. We had to sweep, keep our yard sweeped and watered down. So, I don’t, slum, I don’t know about that part of it. I know that there was some dangers when it come to the DDT that they used to shoot to kill the mosquitoes and everything and we was running right behind that truck back there and didn’t know how important- I mean, right up under it. And didn’t know the importance of it. You now? So we survived that. And there was a creek that was running right out back of our house, and right up under our house. And that’s how we got our baseballs, and softballs, and tennis rackets and things like that- right out of the creek. So, I don’t think that Brooklyn was a slum. Brooklyn was always highly respected as one of the cleanest cities in the United States.
JP: Now, you said that you lived, you grew up on Second Street. And I’ve heard that Second Street was a very, very important part of the community.
JB: Well, that was on the northwest part of it.
JP: OK.
JB: I grew up on the low end part of it, where it stopped, between Long Street and Morrow Street. That was down there by the orphan home.
JP: So that was a more residential section of…
JB: All of it was residential. You had businesses down there, you had little corner stores, you know? You wasn’t far from McDowell, you were just a block over from McDowell Street, so you had businesses during that time. The thing, blacks owned a lot of businesses during that time. And, you know, I remember businesses there today. I look at the portrait that there’s, the chicken house that’s right there on Fourth and Long Street, you know? And, the Snow White Laundry’s still there, on Fourth and McDowell, that’s the only historical part of it that, that , spells out in that area. And like, where in Marshall Park, where the water fountain is the only thing that represents the House of Prayer in Brooklyn, right there at Marshall Park. But nobody really brings that out. That is where the House of Prayer- they can’t build nothing on that.
JP: Right.
JB: That’s, that’s representing identity…
JP: Right.
JB:… you know?
JP: That’s a sacred area.
JB: That’s right, it’s very secret, well, sacred, I would put it that way.
JP: What other kind of businesses can you think of that thrived in the neighborhood and provided…
JB: Now?
JP: Well, in its heyday, when you were living there as a child.
JB: Well, Cedric Ford, has a, he had a little store right there at Long and, and Long and Second Street. And Miss Pet, she had a store right there on Long, and they sold candy, cookies, and, and snowballs.
JP: Snowballs.
JB: You know? And then the House of Prayer had, they had restaurants in there, cafes in there. And see, and that was like a strip mall. And that’s another thing, that’s another thing, that the House of Prayer had something like a strip mall. They had a beauty shop, they had restaurants and things like that in there. We were the only ones that had these types of things.
JP: And it was open to everybody in the community to come in?
JB: And it was open to everybody in the community, yeah.
JP: And what was the reasoning behind putting the businesses in the House of Prayer, in the church itself? What was, what were they trying to do there?
JB: Well, it was just community, tried to, where it was convenient to people to use that.
JP: Sure.
JB: That was nothing much because people, if they didn’t have their own gardens and stuff like that, you could go to the stores, you had plenty of stores in the community. Looked like there was a store on every corner. So you don’t have to worry about gas, because everybody operated on wood and kerosene.
JP: That’s right. Were there any other programs at the House of Prayer that you can remember that helped the community? That maybe educated children or educated adults?
JB: Well, the, the, the, the music, the music, the music in the House of Prayer. If you look at the House of Prayer years ago, we was the only House of Prayer, the only church that had instruments. Horns and drums. We was being made fun of for the drums and things like that.
JP: Why was that?
JB: That was the people in the community was jealous. Now you, I don’t care what church you walk in, you’ll see a drum and a horn today.
JP: That’s right.
JB: So I, so, they have taken, they have taken part, and that’s one thing that the House of Prayer really appreciated about other organizations. They showed leadership and now they begin to follow.
JP: That’s right, that’s right.
JB: You know, so that’s the good part of it there.
JP: And now it’s a, you’re right, it’s a huge trend, everybody’s got music in the church now. And it…
JB: Everybody got drums and horns and things…
JP: Yeah.
JB: So, we looked forward. See, during the evening, they used to practice. The bands, they had several different bands. I remember the first band was, they called the string band. That’s when they made blocks and they hit them together and they played washboards and things like that. They made music out of blocks and washboards. And that’s an art…
JP: Yeah, absolutely.
JB: …to do that, you know?
JP: I imagine that’s a lot harder to do that than it is with the electric guitars…
JB: That’s right, that’s right.
JP: …and the big basses, right?
JB: Absolutely, absolutely, see?
JP: It’s an entirely different art.
JB: So they can put things together. I mean, they made their own instruments, you know? So, they used thimbles, you know, like you sew with, to play the, the washboard…
JP: Isn’t that something? As like a pick?
JB: Yes, absolutely.
JP: Yeah, yeah. Isn’t that something?
JB: It was an art there.
JP: Yeah.
JB: That was history there, and, yeah.
JP: Yeah, yeah. So you said that you went to service there seven days a week. What would a typical service at the House of Prayer be like?
JB: Well, they would have praise service, where you could go sing and pray. Then they would have the finance part of it. And they would always have someone speaking about the religious side of it and, and using it as a way of life.
JP: And were there also programs, when you weren’t in school, let’s say, for just the children?
JB: Yes. They always, they have that now…
JP: Oh, good.
JB: It’s a trend. It’s a- the constitution and the bylaws of that organization have never changed. It’s been under the same heading of all three leaderships. There’s been no changes.
JP: So, what kind of programs did you go to, to make you a part of this community as a child and to educate you through the church?
JB: Well, we went through, like we say, we had Bible school, we had the educational part of it. So, if you couldn’t read then they had a place where they took, teach you how to read. Where they teach you ABC’s, they teach you how to count, you know? So, it was a very educational, always been educational. If you look [door slams] at the members of the House of Prayer, they turn out more educated than any other organization.
JP: “Cause it was expected of them, right?
JB: That’s right.
JP: To be…
JB: They got their own lawyers, they got their own doctors, they have, they turn them out.
JP: All who came from the congregation, I’m sure…
JB: That’s right. Come from the congregation.
JP: …and come back to serve. [door slams]
JB: Now, what they are looking for, if they can get enough young people to go to school, if there are more nurses and doctors, they will build their own hospital.
JP: Oh, that’s a great idea. That’s a great idea.
JB: Well, you see they just got the senior, they bought the old McDonald’s and they got their own senior citizen facility. And that’s paid for, I mean, they don’t have to look for a loan. You’ll never see any mortgage company any time in the House of Prayer buying a building. You’ll never see a mortgage company.
JP: And so they can provide that many more services.
JB: They can provide that many more services. So, so what they are looking for, they are looking for young people to get their education, and they will make sure that they can be employed, because they’ll build or buy a hospital, or some things like that, they’re talking about more nursing homes, they’re talking about more daycare centers, they’re talking about things for the people, it’s a people organization. And they started that way.
JP: You, you mentioned to me that you came from a very large family. You had nine brothers and sisters, no, there are nine total…
JB: Nine total.
JP…nine total brothers and sisters. And so, what was it like growing up in such a big family? I mean, was, were you very close-knit in the Brooklyn community, or did you also have a larger extended family that you lived with, or both?
JB: Well, it was, it was both. See, we was, it was nine of us living in a, well, it was, it was eleven of us living in a one bedroom, two bedroom house.
JP: Wow, yeah.
JB: So, and, that was close.
JP: Yeah.
JB: That was very close. So it’s amazing. It’s amazing. That, it proves that we can live together.
JP: That’s right, that’s right. And, so, as a child, what kind of work would you do around the house to help the family out?
JB: Oh, well, that was, that was chores that was mandatory. I mean, you know, we had to cut wood, we had to cut kindling, we had to bank the fires, we had , we had to heat the water from the wash pots to do the dishes, to wash clothes and things like that, so, we made our own lye soap, we did all of that.
JP: And, can you tell me a little bit about the community garden?
JB: Well, the community garden was something special in the community. And it was something that my father always looked forward to doing, is to have that garden, you know? And I can see him now, in the fall of the year, the, the greens. And in the, in the spring of the year, you see the tomatoes and, and, you know, your, all your other, the string beans, the squash, and [door slams] all those things. And, I didn’t like that, but now I understand it because it brought a, many smiles to people’s faces. That, you know, wasn’t as fortunate.
JP: So you would work in the garden, and it would feed the entire community when harvest time came?
JB: Yes. It would feed people from Fourth Street , to First Street, from Long Street, they came from all over to get out of the garden. So it was plenty.
JP: I’m curious, how big was this garden?
JB: This garden was about right at an acre and a half.
JP: Wow. That is a very large garden. That is enough to feed all those people for sure, for sure.
JB: Yeah.
JP: Well, what about your mom? What kind of work did your mom do?
JB: She was a seamstress. Then she was also, she was a cook. She used to do special functions and things like that, but she didn’t spend day in and day out, she didn’t believe in cleaning someone else’s house, she didn’t believe in that, you know? She was a cook, she got paid well for what she was doing. She was a seamstress and designer.
JP: So people would actually come to the house to have her make dresses, or…
JB: Dresses, yeah. See, like, this time of year, I mean, she’d be, she was busy the whole time, because she would make uniforms for the choirs and different things in the church and things like that. Her and my aunt. See, that was their thing, you know? That was just a special thing. They’d be up sewing all night long.
JP: Yeah, yeah, sure.
JB: Things like that, you know?
JP: Do you, do you remember, were there a lot of women that had businesses out of their homes during that period, or did it tend to be more formal, kind of businesses?
JB: It was more domestic, more domestic, you know?
JP: And what about your father, what did he do?
JB: Well, my father, he worked for the quartermaster. He retired from the quartermaster, and he also retired from Sears and Roebuck.
JP: So, you lived on Second Street, then, until 1952, and where did you move when you left Second Street?
JB: Moved to Southside in, on, Southside Homes. It wasn’t a project. It was the homes, back during that time, and that has changed tremendous. We moved from dirt to grass. And we had to cut our own lawn with the push lawnmowers. And I loved that. And, you know, my mother loved flowers, so she had her flowerbed and we would take care of that and manicured the front and back yard. I used to checkerboard the yard and then go across the street and look at because we was taught to have pride in what you do…
JP: Right.
JB: You know, so…
JP: And you had a really sharp-looking yard.
JB: Yes, yes, yes. And so, the community would come together and give a prize for who had the best year and things like that, so, it was, it was something that we looked forward to, to doing.
JP: Why did your family leave the Brooklyn community in 1952?
JB: Well, for, for better living quarters. We moved from wood and coal to gas. And it was a lot cleaner, you know? And, we, our house was made out of wood, and we could see through the walls. In the wintertime, we had to put cotton in the walls, and rags in the walls, and down in the floor, you could look down through the floor and see the ground. So, we moved from that, to, like moving into Myers Park.
JP: Right, right.
JB: You know, that’s what we felt like.
JP: In a solid house , yeah…
JB: So we had pride…
JP: …and a yard.
JB: Yes. So we had pride in that.
JP: How aware were you at this time for the city’s plans for urban renewal in Brooklyn?
JB: Well, we knew it was going to happen. The only thing that I knew, I knew was identity. What we were losing. Nothing to identify with. And, and that has a problem with education. If you don’t identify with nothing, then you have nothing. And that’s something that we, was instilled in us, was identity. Know your identity. And, that’s, that’s very important. And that’s, that’s what’s gone. Unwritten history.
JP: And you said that, I mean, speaking of identity, you said that your parents had lived in Brooklyn for quite a while before they had children, right? How many generations of your family lived in that area?
JB: Three.
JP: Three generations lived in Brooklyn. And then, when you had to leave the, mean, really, you lost not just the neighborhood, but you lost the community, right?
JB: You lost the community. I mean, you go down through there now- see, there was no Independence Boulevard. It was Stone Street, Stonewall, and it stopped right there at Morrow Street. And, the only two, two streets that you had was Seventh Street and Fourth Street going through Charlotte…
JP: Right.
JB: …going that way, you know? And I could look back at the (unclear) Nursing Home, I could look back at the ice house. I look back at El Chico restaurant, I can look at, I can look back at Bonnie Pearson funeral home right there beside that El Chico, I can look at JC Shoe Shop down there on the corner of Second and McDowell. I can look at Pittman Store, I can look at Barker Store down there in the flat, I mean, I can see Charlie’s Candy Shop, you know? And, you know, I can see these things, and then you go through there- there’s nothing.
JP: There’s nothing, yeah.
JB: Representive. So you can, kids and things about them today, or newcomers to the community. But it don’t mean anything because there’s no landmark, there’s no identity.
JP: Right. After your family left, did you have relatives who still lived in the Brooklyn community?
JB: Yeah, my grandmother and them. They lived there. They lived right there on McDowell. See, McDowell was the last place that they start renovating. That and, more, a little, a little west of that., you know? So, you saw it coming, sure.
JP: Yeah.
JB: The town, the town had to grow. But you take Brevard Street, is the last street, I think, that, on this side of Fourth Street, on the west side of Fourth Street, that kept it’s identity and they’ve still got buildings on Brevard Street today. You know? The library, it’s not there. And they got a part of Second Ward that’s still there, you know? And, there’s not much, you know, that you are looking at.
JP: Right.
JB: But then, it’s good for a lot of reasons, you know?
JP: The process of urban renewal, you mean, or…
JB: Well, I believe in growth, definitely in economical growth, and, the only thing about economical growth is African-Americans, they got one building down there. I think that’s on what is that, on First Street on, on Independence? Well, that was a doctor’s building, whatever that was down there, but that was the only building that they had when it come to economic growth. So, the, the colored people, or Negroes, they don’t have no identity down there in business. And that’s the only thing that beats our race of people is economics. Slavery changes in one form, and one form only, social economics.
JP: That’s right. That’s right. If you, looking back on the city’s plans to raze Brooklyn now, what do you think could have been done differently to make the process easier for people in the community? I mean, you said it had to be done, right? Because we believe in economic growth.
JB: Yes.
JP: And that, maybe it was an opportunity for some people? What do you think the city could have done better?
JB: Well, you got, what I, what I think that they could have done better, I think that they could have, there should have been some type of school that is, that is put up, a high school, or, put up in that community. You’ve got Central Piedmont in that community, you know what I mean? But there’s, there could be a school. I’m not saying no Second Ward. But there could be some type of school there, you know? And now, I believe in separation. I believe in, in, in talent. There should be some kind of special school for special kids in that area. [airplane flies overhead] Something to represent the educational part of it. You know? So, that’s, that, that growth, it, it gives more exposure. If you’re going to school downtown and you’re looking at all these banks, I mean, I mean, that’s a part of exposure, too.
JP: Sure.
JB: So you’re preparing yourself for business.
JP: That’s right.
JB: Yeah.
JP: It becomes part of your world, part of your worldview.
JB: That’s, absolutely, absolutely. I don’t see, I mean, I believe in economical growth, and I don’t put it on government or a specific race of people. I put it on my people. Because I remember back during the ‘60s, what I tried to do, I was put in the bad box, I tried to get everybody on welfare, per member, per household, to put a dollar up, once a month for two years. And let’s take that money and open up our own salt wares and dry goods stores…
JP: Right, for self-help.
JB: Work for yourself. For self-help. But, it got to some sources where you were trying to be, well, back then, back then, communist. So, you know what I’m saying? You was, you was, you was being ratted out. Too smart, they don’t want nothing. They’re content with what they want, so.
JP: So, you’ve talked about this a little bit, but I’d like maybe to hear you expand on it a little bit. What do you think the legacies are of Brooklyn, the community, and its…
JB: The House of Prayer is the biggest legacy that’s ever been in Brooklyn.
JP: And it’s still going strong.
JB: And you look at it today…
JP: It’s still going strong.
JB: If you got pictures, and you know Sam will give you those pictures, back during the beginning of it, when it was on Caldwell and Third, up until today, that you will see the legacy of that organization. There is no other organization in this city as strong as that organization. They have a legacy in Brooklyn because that fountain is still there in Marshall Park.
JP: Right, and so you think that, that the House of Prayer is probably the institution that’s most representative of what the community was?
JB: The only one, the only one. What are they doing today that they did years ago? They still have band competitions from all over the United States, bands come. They still have competitions. They still have baptisms. They have the biggest baptism that, here in Charlotte, that, it went down in Ripley’s Believe it or Not. They baptized more people at [JB thumps hands on table] one time than any organization.
JP: How about that?
JB: Yes.
JP: Yeah. And do they do that, do they do that once a year?
JB: They do it now. They have a pool, and there’s so many people they can’t do it, so they get the water hoses, and boom! And the most beautiful…
JP: Yeah.
JB: …the most beautiful thing that you ever seen, to see the firemen, it was amazing about this politics- the state and church nonsense. [laughs] Nonsense. OK, and the House of Prayer wants to baptize, they wanted to use the city water. They’re paying for it…
JP: Yeah, of course.
JB: You know what I mean? No church and state. So, Hopewell Volunteer Fire Department volunteered…
JP: Wow.
JB:… to come…
JP: Yeah.
JB:… and do that. And so the Bishop wanted to buy them a new truck, fire truck. They wouldn’t accept it…
JP: [laughs]To say thank you.
JB: They wouldn’t accept it.
JP: Oh, really, really? How about that?
JB: But when they made donations. See, our organization make big contributions to a lot of organizations. The Negro College Foundation, the Bread Basket, they made big donations to a lot of organizations out there, see, so. Yeah, I would, I would, yeah, I would say you see the same thing, they did the same thing in Brooklyn. They still baptizing, and they baptizing way more people today, and you will see all colors of people get, being baptized and I remember when they did it on, on, over there on Freedom Drive. I’ve seen people, white people with their kids, get out and just walk in that water to feel the joy in the spirit. That’s joy, you know what I mean? And we the only one that has that. That is a legacy.
JP: Yeah.
JB: And then the food, the food, the food.
JP: I’ve heard about the food. [laughs]
JB: Everybody, everybody talk about always going there for the food.
JP: That’s right.
JB: You know, they have, like a, like a, food carnival, they have stores. [JP laughs] You know, like you see downtown, on…yes, yes, yes.
JP: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s fantastic.
JB: See, that’s, that’s the legacy. It’s going on.
JP: Is there anything else that I haven’t asked that you’d like to talk about? Anything that, that you were thinking about when you were getting ready for this interview?
JB: Nothing.
JP: No?
JB: The only thing I know is what I know.
JP: OK.
JB: Whatever you ask.
JP: That’s great.
JB: You know, if I know, I’ll say something, and if I don’t know, I’ll say “Go to that person.”
JP: Well, you seem to be very, very knowledgeable. And we really appreciate your time today, taking time out of your schedule.
JB: Sam would give you a lot more about what goes on with that, with this organization. It’s very instrumental to the Mecklenburg School system. The Mecklenburg School system looked into this organization and what it has to offer the community on an educational level, you know? And that’s something from the beginning that this organization talked about. You must go to school. Every leader that we have had, every bishop that we have had, have always talked about education when it comes to the youth. The youth, the youth. You know, and if you looked downtown, and you had to take a survey of crime, look how many members of the House of Prayer is going into that court system.
JP: Yeah.
JB: We have the smallest percentage…
JP: Right.
JB:…of any organization in this city.
JP: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it really goes back to that idea of community…
JB: That’s exactly what it is.
JP: …and these children feel like they’re a part of something bigger.
JB: What people would be ashamed- see, what we was taught, shame. If somebody see you doing something, and you was a member, you were shamed. Because you know that ain’t the way.
JP: Yeah, because you knew better.
JB: Age didn’t make no difference.
JP: Right, right.
JB: See, so that was the respect and the manners, the manners that we had. See, we was taught to have manners. You know, respecting one another. You got to respect your brother and sister. We all brothers and sisters.
JP: Right.
JB: Now, they believed in right, so you know right from wrong, so now, yeah, that was, [door slams] “Oh, I seen him with a cigarette, I seen him…,” and right today, I mean, it just, that’s part of it.
JP: Right, right.
JB: I mean, I’m grown, I ain’t got nothing to hide. Just that. ‘Cause they go back, they go back, they go back. Now, you know, your mother never appreciated that- you couldn’t never smoke no cigarette in your mama’s yard. Not talking about the house, there wasn’t no ashtrays, there wasn’t none of that. You weren’t drinking nothing in the yard. Wasn’t none of that.
JP: Just wasn’t acceptable.
JB: You know, I remember, I invited my mother to the house, and I had some Belvederes there. She come in, she sat down, she “What is this?” I said, “This is mine.” She walked right back out the door. She said “I don’t approve of this.” I said, “This is my house.” “Don’t make no difference. That’s my house too,” she said.
JP: That’s right. That’s right.
JB: And, so..
JP: Well, and it sounds, too, like what you learned at the House of Prayer has really helped you in your career.
JB: Well, it took me to the four corners of the world. I became guests of kings, queens, presidents, vice-presidents, senators, ambassadors of the United States. So, that part of it has taken me in the four corners of the world. And I learned coming up, respect and honesty. And, I know the importance of yes and no ma’am and sir. You know, age don’t make no difference, that’s the way that you greet people. You know, it’s that personal appearances again. [door slams] You got to have self-respect. And you, it’s got to be in you. [JB Thumps hands on the table] You know? It lives in you. But, you know, God is good, and he’s good all the time. And, it’s amazing about talent. People have the misconception -that we all born with ability but God gives the knowledge, that’s talent. I was, I was, I give golf lessons all over the United States on the telephone. Most of mine is on the telephone, you know, I have a special phone to do that. And I have a lot of touring pros that consult. I’ve spent time with them and I know what they’re doing, and it’s amazing about the human body. And it’s simple. The nervous system controls the muscular system. Every motion of the body. Big muscles come from the pelvis. If you’re getting ready to get up you get up from the pelvis, if you sit down, you sit down from the pelvis, you turn, you turn from the pelvis. So that’s what golf is, everything’s in a line to the pelvis.
JP: That’s right.
JB: And it’s amazing. The fundamentals. It’s amazing.
JP: Yeah.
JB: But they teach you everything else, though, and I’m glad…
JP: Bend this way and bend that way…
JP: Bend that way, I’m glad, I’m glad to see this, this, you know? And the muscle structure is in the backside of the body, so the human being, he looks in the front side. He’s looking at his arms and looking at the front side. Your shoulders are back here. Your torso is back here. Your hips, your hamstrings, calves on the backside, they go through the front side. You walk backwards, which is very seldom, they pull you back, you going forward, they pushes you forward.
JP: That’s right.
JB: Everybody’s trying to move from the front side.
JP: All your strength is…
JB: And they don’t know nothing about the body weight, you know. They don’t know the head is the heaviest part of the body for the upper body.
JP: And these are touring pros that you’re talking about, professionals?
JB: Yes, they just got so much ability, so when they learn about the way that they do things natural, see, and I’ll tell them, “I’ll nurture your natural ability.” That’s all I can do. I sell information.
JP: Well, I just, I can’t wait to tell my husband about you.
JB: See, that’s all I do, I sell information. And I enjoy it.
JP: Yeah.
JB: I enjoy doing that because I’m putting back in life something that God’s given me, and that’s important.
JP: That’s right.
JB: He gives me the knowledge, he gives me the mind. I have the will to give it. And that’s why I go into the school system and find kids and give it to them.
JP: Well, you’re very inspirational.
JB: Thank you.
JP: Your, your life story is very inspirational. And it’s, I’ve, I’ve really enjoyed sitting here talking to you today.
JB: I’m, I’m going to do a, I’m going to do a life, I’ve been asked to do a book, and do a life story. I’ve been asked in Vegas to do movies twice, and I refuse to do them because of the negative parts. And I’m not about the negative.
JP: Right.
JB: There’s some negative things in there that brings about the positive, but I believe in being positive. You know, how I got over that hump, yes, I did. There was a lot of focus and willing, and you don’t appreciate it until you earn it.
JP: That’s right.
JB: ‘Cause your work speaks for you. If somebody give you something, you don’t appreciate it as much as you earn it. I earned this. I cherish that.
JP: That’s right, that’s right.
JB: So, I cherish what I go through, you know? The privilege, that ‘s what it is, it’s a, it’s, it’s a privilege to be alive, it’s a privilege to be able to give in life. That’s the greatest feeling to be able to give back. You know, why would you give somebody that already got it? Give to someone that don’t have it.
JP: That’s right.
JB: That’s when you feel rich, spiritually, mentally. You’re rich that way. You’re not rich in material life. But like the book says, if you gain the whole world and lose your soul, what did you accomplish. So, I feel rich in spirit.
JP: It shows. It does, it does. It shows.
JB: Yeah, and I love that. And I love people. And I traveled alone. I know you can get in trouble messing with people.
JP: That’s right, that’s right.
JB: You know, I have enough to do, I have enough to do alone. I learned a lot because I opened up. I don’t know nothing, and when I don’t know anything, that’s when it’s revealed, knowledge. But if I’m clogged, ain’t nothing that can come in. The cup is running over, so you can’t get nothing in the cup that is full. I don’t keep my cup full.
JP: So you’ve got to be receptive to it.
JB: That’s right.
JP: Right.
JB: That’s right. That’s how I learn to learn. See, I already know, I already know what I already know. So why hold that in that cup?
JP: That’s right.
JB: That’s when you’re documented.
JP: That’s right.
JB: Then you’re open. You’re receiving.
JP: Yeah. Yeah.
JB: See, that’s communication. Communication is transmitting and receiving. You can’t do both of them at the same time. So, I’m open to receive. I, I have a direct line of communication. That’s having my own perception with me and God.
JP: Well, I think maybe you should write a book. I think you’ve got a lot of great, great stories to tell…
JB: Oh, yes, oh…
JP:..and very inspirational messages.
JB: Some of the, some of the greatest- oh, man, some of the greatest experiences in life is dealing with minds and helping minds. That’s, that’s, that’s the key. You find – that I’m working with a guy down in Daytona, Florida, and he’s a minister and he plays golf, and he said, “I’ve been here, and he’d been there, and he read this, and I’ve got this and got that.” And I said, “You still don’t got what it takes.” “What are you talking about?” “You don’t have you, and you don’t have God. You got to have your own perception. You got to believe in your own self. If you don’t have a relationship with you, how you going to have one with God? How you going to have one with your wife, how you going to have one with your children? You’d better know who you are.”
JP: That’s right.
JB: If you know, really know you, you can live. But if you don’t know you, you can’t deliver, because you going to come with wrath, and there are going to be times that your personality is going to beat you. If you can stay humble, and you can speak that way, you can go a long ways. But if you, nobody likes that.
JP: That’s right.
JB: That penetrates. You can be in love, you know, that’s what, that’s how you win the war.
JP: That easy.
JB: Yes, yes. You know, I have a saying, “I love you and there ain’t nothing you can do about it.” [JP laughs] So I have no problem. Ain’t nothing they can do, what can they do about it.
JP: That’s great.
JB: I don’t have no hate. I don’t have it. I could, but what is it going to do for me? That’s a setback, that’s, that’s, I don’t have a direct communication line if I got hate. Something can’t get there. So I know how important it is to have a self-positive concept about communication. It’s so important, you know? I read a book, a long time ago, about being a positive thinker. Positive for Power. That’s amazing. Being positive is power. You know, and it don’t take much, it don’t take much. See, that’s when you can eliminate, you have to be able to eliminate. There’s so much around you, and so many things coming at you, and so many things you go toward, you better know how to eliminate, you know. You got to weed out, and there ain;t but one thing a day if you going to accomplish something.
JP: That’s right.
JB: That’s what makes life so good. When you go home, you don’t have to worry about the next day. It’s going to happen.
JP: Nothing you can do about it. [laughs]
JB: Nothing you can do about it. It’s going to happen.
JP: Well, Mr. Black, I want to thank you for your time today.
JB: I want to thank both of you all, too.
JP: This has been a great interview. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you today, and this information that you’ve given us is going to be very important for the project and for future researchers, so thank you very much. Thank you.
JB: Well, I hope so, I hope so. We just need more people to, to gather the history, that’s like, when I went to Alabama last year, they gave me the resolution in the state, the state legislature. I’ve also had the Pine Leaf Award, too.
JP: That’s in North Carolina, right?
JB: In North Carolina, given by the government, you know. So, I don’t know how you get it, [JP and JB laugh] I don’t know what you do to get it…
JP: But you got it.
JB: I don’t know what you do to get it.
JP: It is an award for service, exemplary service to the community?
JB: Yes, yes, yes.
JP: I remember hearing that somewhere, I’m not sure if that’s right.
JB: It’s for a contribution to life. That’s what it is. You have a- that’s a legacy, you have a history of that. You know? Of your work, you know, giving and taking. In order to give, you got to be able to take.
JP: Right, right.
JB: So you ain’t going to give something that ain’t worth anything.
JP: Well, I think we can probably all learn something from that. [JB laughs] We could all use a little bit more of that, I think.
End of interview. Approximately 49 minutes.
Transcript
James Black
James Black
Interviewed at West Boulevard Public Library, Charlotte, North Carolina
March 26, 2007
Interviewer: Payne, Jennifer
Transcription completed: July 2007
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Editor: Karen Flint
Title: Interview with James Black
Keywords [subject]:
Description [abstract]: Mr. James Black was born in Brooklyn in 1942 and was a resident of the community until 1952, although he has extended family that stayed in Brooklyn through the urban renewal period. His life reflects the importance of the Brooklyn community structure, especially the guidance given to the members of the United House of Prayer for All People. In this interview, Mr. Black expresses his admiration for the role that the House of Prayer had in the community and remembers aspects of the daily operations of the church, such as businesses that operated out of the church and details of the services. In addition, Mr. Black remembers fondly the high expectations that were set for him by his parents and family, and recalls the role of the community in rearing a child. The neighborhood garden in which Mr. Black worked as a child is one manifestation of this community spirit. Mr. Black has certainly exceeded the expectations of his family and neighbors, first as a groundbreaking African-American professional golfer and currently as the founder of a non-profit organization that uses the game of golf to teach valuable life skills to at-risk children.
Contributor: James Black
Interview Date: March 26, 2007
Format: WAV (49 minutes, nine seconds)
Identifier: [file number]
Coverage: Brooklyn, Charlotte, North Carolina, 1940s-1960s
Interviewer: Jennifer Payne
Recorder (if different than interviewer): Dawn Funk
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Participant description:
Age: 66
Birth date: 1942
Birth location: Brooklyn, Charlotte, North Carolina
Residence: Charlotte, North Carolina
Education: Second Ward High School
Occupation(s): Golf Professional
Setting Description: West Boulevard Public Library, Charlotte, North Carolina
JP: Jennifer Payne
JB: James Black
JP: This is Jennifer Payne. Today is March 27, 2007, and I’m here interviewing Mr. James Black for the Brooklyn Oral History Project in conjunction with UNC-Charlotte Department of History and Atkins Library Special Collections. Good morning, Mr. Black. Thank you for coming today.
JB: Good morning.
JP: We’ve talked a little bit about some of your history in Brooklyn, and I’d like to take an opportunity just to sort of get your ideas about what it was like growing up in Brooklyn. What was the community like?
JB: Well, it was a close-knitted community. And it was always awareness and caring and it was a lot of interest in people learning to learn coming up in Brooklyn. And that was one of the most important parts of it, it was the educational part. We had schools right at us, such as Myers Street and Second Ward, coming up in Brooklyn. So, you know, it was, it was very important. And see, they also had at Second Ward Carver College, coming out as a vocational school where you can learn trades. So, that was, that was our community.
JP: And so, in some ways the community was centered around these schools. Was it also centered around families, churches, social clubs?
JB: Well, it was, it was also- not so much the social club. It was, it was centered more around churches and the schools are like- now, they had several different churches in the community. They had the House of Prayer, which is one of the most important parts of the community because it came from sawdust to where it is today, from a tent, really, to where it is today. And I was blessed to be a part of – both families have been a member from the beginning back in 1926. My grandmother and- on my father’s side and my grandmother on my mother’s side, and all the rest of the family on both sides became a member of the United House of Prayer. So, that was a big stepping stone for our family, because that organization had things for us to do. We had the only swimming pool in Charlotte on that side of town, on the east side of town. Or the west side of town. There was nothing but two swimming pools. That was Sunset Park and the House of Prayer. So, and then we had Bible School there and we had our summer programs at the House of Prayer. The House of Prayer had one of the biggest events that ever been in this city. And there was nothing but two big events for Afro-Americans or Negroes. That was the Queen City Classic, and that was football between Second Ward and West Charlotte, and the House of Prayer Parade. American Grace Peace Parade. And you had, that was one of the biggest. That parade was just as big as the Christmas Carousel Parade. And that was amazing to see people come together for that parade, all colors of people. There was a coalition there. And see, and the other thing about the House of Prayer, we had white ministers in the House of Prayer, see? So, that was, that was amazing. We have always had white ministers, you know, and people think that Daddy Grace was a Negro, an African-American, but he wasn’t. He was not.
JP: Really?
JB: He was from Portugal.
JP: Oh, I didn’t know that. That is very, very interesting.
JB: He was not. And see, that’s history itself, you know? So, he established the United House of Prayer for All People and, and I waited till I got grown to really understand that part of the organization. It don’t knock anybody, [Mr. Black thumping on the table]. It don’t make no difference who you are, what you are.
JP: Right.
JP: It’s, you got all kind of people in the House of Prayer.
JP: Right
JB: So, it’s for all people.
JP: So, it really was accepting of all ethnicities, all backgrounds, all income levels?
JB: Yes, that’s right, that’s right. All what.
JP: Right.
JB: And that’s what it is, so.
JP: Right.
JB: And that’s what made that house, that organization the greatest Negro or colored or black organization in the United States. It is the greatest of all of them because it is mortgage-free.
JP: That’s a great point. Actually, that‘s very, very interesting.
JB: And see, it’s united. It’s all over the United States and it has its own housing development and things like that, so it has been big in all communities throughout the United States, not just in Charlotte, but it’s been a big important part. And we are the, one of the only organizations in the United States that never used tax dollars.
JP: How about that? How about that?
JB: So that is history.
JP: Well…
JB: That is very important. That we have never used any federal money to build our housing or anything.
JP: And it goes back to the learn to learn that you were talking about.
JB: Learn to learn.
JP: This idea in the community that everybody in the community worked together…
JB: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right.
JP: … to make things happen, right? How, when you went to the services at the House of Prayer, what, when would you go during the week? How many times would you have services…
JB: Seven days a week.
JP: Seven days a week?
JB: That was mandatory to go seven days a week…
JP: Wow.
JB: ..and see, and I remember on Long Street, we had to water down the shavings because it would be like clouds in there when people get to marching and shouting, you know. It was a place to go to let that frustration out. And then, you know, all the kids, it was always something to do. I don’t know whether you have ever been in the House of Prayer or been around the House of Prayer…
JP: I have not.
JB: It thrives on young people. And you’ll see that that organization believes in young people. And see, it has a scholarship foundation that they don’t have to pay a nickel, as long as this organization exists, this, this organization have enough money in, in the scholarship foundation to last the rest of its life there, you know?
JP: That’s awesome.
JB: And it’s open for all people. See, it’s, it’s again, it goes back to the United House of Prayer for All People. It don’t make no difference what color can apply for the scholarship money there in the United House of Prayer. Only organization that has that.
JP: That’s fantastic. You know, I’ve heard a lot of contradicting opinions about Daddy Grace himself. Some people say that he’s this wonderful man that brought the community together and other people may say that he’s kind of a grandstander, right?
JB: Well, your work is your evidence. And so, to bring an organization together from pennies to where it is today, and, you can be proud of it. Sure, we was made fun of in our own community. I’ve never known white people to make fun of our organization. There were black people making fun of our organization. But when the summertime come and we opened our pools, everybody was in the pool, [JP laughs] the ones that was making fun of it. I remember that, it was a bunch of kids, we said, “ Well, we going to drown some of these kids that made fun of us during the year when the pool opens.” So, Daddy Grace got a, you know a little whiff of that, and before we opened up the pool, he said, “Those kids have as much right in that pool as anybody. It’s the House of Prayer for All People.” So, then I learned, I knew how important the House of Prayer was.
JP: Right, right. To bring people together.
JB: Yeah, so when they stopped talking, then that’s when everybody would stop worrying. So the constructive criticism didn’t do nothing to make the House of Prayer what is the greatest African-American organization in the United States.
JP: Right, right.
JB: And people, well, you know, the devil is there, and they could never find a fault with the leadership of the United House of Prayer. You can look in all other organizations. There is no spot or wrinkle with the leadership of the United House of Prayer. We have one leader. So there’s never been any scandals when it comes to the leadership of the United House of Prayer.
JP: And it sounds like they understand, too, that they’re responsible to the congregation, right?
JB: That, they are.
JP: To keep this, you know, it’s original mission.
JB: Now, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s, yeah, see, if, if we didn’t have great leadership and the bylaws in the constitution that stands up for that organization it’d have been crumbled down because you’ve got members, you got ministers in there to try to bring it down. And they couldn’t. They tried to fight it. The House of Prayer never lost a battle in court.
JP: Wow.
JB: Never.
JP: How about that?
JB: Never lost one.
JP: That is really something. What about, well, first, why don’t you tell me where you lived in Brooklyn when you were growing up.
JB: I lived on Second Street. 1024 East Second Street. [laughs]
JP: And what kind of house was that that you grew up in?
JB: It was a duplex, like a shotgun. You could see straight through it.
JP: And, did you have, this was, you were born in 1942 and you lived in Brooklyn until 1966. No, I’m sorry, 1952.
JB: No, 1952.
JP: You moved out.
JB: Yes.
JP: So, what kind of amenities did you have in your house at that time? Did you have electricity, did you have indoor plumbing?
JB: We had electricity, we had electricity. We didn’t have any plumbing. All the plumbing was out in the back.
JP: And, so, how would you characterize the neighborhood of Brooklyn in terms of the buildings that were in it? You know, a lot of people when they talk about Brooklyn, they claim that it was this slum, it was a blighted area. But we’ve seen evidence that there were a lot of very, you know, viable businesses, and, you know, middle-class housing and this sort of thing. How would you characterize it?
JB: Well, time, time. Charlotte is one of the most cleanest cities in the United States. So, if you went through the United States, Charlotte was really not what you’d say a slum. Because what we had to do as kids coming up, we couldn’t let a spring of grass grow in our yard. We had to sweep, keep our yard sweeped and watered down. So, I don’t, slum, I don’t know about that part of it. I know that there was some dangers when it come to the DDT that they used to shoot to kill the mosquitoes and everything and we was running right behind that truck back there and didn’t know how important- I mean, right up under it. And didn’t know the importance of it. You now? So we survived that. And there was a creek that was running right out back of our house, and right up under our house. And that’s how we got our baseballs, and softballs, and tennis rackets and things like that- right out of the creek. So, I don’t think that Brooklyn was a slum. Brooklyn was always highly respected as one of the cleanest cities in the United States.
JP: Now, you said that you lived, you grew up on Second Street. And I’ve heard that Second Street was a very, very important part of the community.
JB: Well, that was on the northwest part of it.
JP: OK.
JB: I grew up on the low end part of it, where it stopped, between Long Street and Morrow Street. That was down there by the orphan home.
JP: So that was a more residential section of…
JB: All of it was residential. You had businesses down there, you had little corner stores, you know? You wasn’t far from McDowell, you were just a block over from McDowell Street, so you had businesses during that time. The thing, blacks owned a lot of businesses during that time. And, you know, I remember businesses there today. I look at the portrait that there’s, the chicken house that’s right there on Fourth and Long Street, you know? And, the Snow White Laundry’s still there, on Fourth and McDowell, that’s the only historical part of it that, that , spells out in that area. And like, where in Marshall Park, where the water fountain is the only thing that represents the House of Prayer in Brooklyn, right there at Marshall Park. But nobody really brings that out. That is where the House of Prayer- they can’t build nothing on that.
JP: Right.
JB: That’s, that’s representing identity…
JP: Right.
JB:… you know?
JP: That’s a sacred area.
JB: That’s right, it’s very secret, well, sacred, I would put it that way.
JP: What other kind of businesses can you think of that thrived in the neighborhood and provided…
JB: Now?
JP: Well, in its heyday, when you were living there as a child.
JB: Well, Cedric Ford, has a, he had a little store right there at Long and, and Long and Second Street. And Miss Pet, she had a store right there on Long, and they sold candy, cookies, and, and snowballs.
JP: Snowballs.
JB: You know? And then the House of Prayer had, they had restaurants in there, cafes in there. And see, and that was like a strip mall. And that’s another thing, that’s another thing, that the House of Prayer had something like a strip mall. They had a beauty shop, they had restaurants and things like that in there. We were the only ones that had these types of things.
JP: And it was open to everybody in the community to come in?
JB: And it was open to everybody in the community, yeah.
JP: And what was the reasoning behind putting the businesses in the House of Prayer, in the church itself? What was, what were they trying to do there?
JB: Well, it was just community, tried to, where it was convenient to people to use that.
JP: Sure.
JB: That was nothing much because people, if they didn’t have their own gardens and stuff like that, you could go to the stores, you had plenty of stores in the community. Looked like there was a store on every corner. So you don’t have to worry about gas, because everybody operated on wood and kerosene.
JP: That’s right. Were there any other programs at the House of Prayer that you can remember that helped the community? That maybe educated children or educated adults?
JB: Well, the, the, the, the music, the music, the music in the House of Prayer. If you look at the House of Prayer years ago, we was the only House of Prayer, the only church that had instruments. Horns and drums. We was being made fun of for the drums and things like that.
JP: Why was that?
JB: That was the people in the community was jealous. Now you, I don’t care what church you walk in, you’ll see a drum and a horn today.
JP: That’s right.
JB: So I, so, they have taken, they have taken part, and that’s one thing that the House of Prayer really appreciated about other organizations. They showed leadership and now they begin to follow.
JP: That’s right, that’s right.
JB: You know, so that’s the good part of it there.
JP: And now it’s a, you’re right, it’s a huge trend, everybody’s got music in the church now. And it…
JB: Everybody got drums and horns and things…
JP: Yeah.
JB: So, we looked forward. See, during the evening, they used to practice. The bands, they had several different bands. I remember the first band was, they called the string band. That’s when they made blocks and they hit them together and they played washboards and things like that. They made music out of blocks and washboards. And that’s an art…
JP: Yeah, absolutely.
JB: …to do that, you know?
JP: I imagine that’s a lot harder to do that than it is with the electric guitars…
JB: That’s right, that’s right.
JP: …and the big basses, right?
JB: Absolutely, absolutely, see?
JP: It’s an entirely different art.
JB: So they can put things together. I mean, they made their own instruments, you know? So, they used thimbles, you know, like you sew with, to play the, the washboard…
JP: Isn’t that something? As like a pick?
JB: Yes, absolutely.
JP: Yeah, yeah. Isn’t that something?
JB: It was an art there.
JP: Yeah.
JB: That was history there, and, yeah.
JP: Yeah, yeah. So you said that you went to service there seven days a week. What would a typical service at the House of Prayer be like?
JB: Well, they would have praise service, where you could go sing and pray. Then they would have the finance part of it. And they would always have someone speaking about the religious side of it and, and using it as a way of life.
JP: And were there also programs, when you weren’t in school, let’s say, for just the children?
JB: Yes. They always, they have that now…
JP: Oh, good.
JB: It’s a trend. It’s a- the constitution and the bylaws of that organization have never changed. It’s been under the same heading of all three leaderships. There’s been no changes.
JP: So, what kind of programs did you go to, to make you a part of this community as a child and to educate you through the church?
JB: Well, we went through, like we say, we had Bible school, we had the educational part of it. So, if you couldn’t read then they had a place where they took, teach you how to read. Where they teach you ABC’s, they teach you how to count, you know? So, it was a very educational, always been educational. If you look [door slams] at the members of the House of Prayer, they turn out more educated than any other organization.
JP: “Cause it was expected of them, right?
JB: That’s right.
JP: To be…
JB: They got their own lawyers, they got their own doctors, they have, they turn them out.
JP: All who came from the congregation, I’m sure…
JB: That’s right. Come from the congregation.
JP: …and come back to serve. [door slams]
JB: Now, what they are looking for, if they can get enough young people to go to school, if there are more nurses and doctors, they will build their own hospital.
JP: Oh, that’s a great idea. That’s a great idea.
JB: Well, you see they just got the senior, they bought the old McDonald’s and they got their own senior citizen facility. And that’s paid for, I mean, they don’t have to look for a loan. You’ll never see any mortgage company any time in the House of Prayer buying a building. You’ll never see a mortgage company.
JP: And so they can provide that many more services.
JB: They can provide that many more services. So, so what they are looking for, they are looking for young people to get their education, and they will make sure that they can be employed, because they’ll build or buy a hospital, or some things like that, they’re talking about more nursing homes, they’re talking about more daycare centers, they’re talking about things for the people, it’s a people organization. And they started that way.
JP: You, you mentioned to me that you came from a very large family. You had nine brothers and sisters, no, there are nine total…
JB: Nine total.
JP…nine total brothers and sisters. And so, what was it like growing up in such a big family? I mean, was, were you very close-knit in the Brooklyn community, or did you also have a larger extended family that you lived with, or both?
JB: Well, it was, it was both. See, we was, it was nine of us living in a, well, it was, it was eleven of us living in a one bedroom, two bedroom house.
JP: Wow, yeah.
JB: So, and, that was close.
JP: Yeah.
JB: That was very close. So it’s amazing. It’s amazing. That, it proves that we can live together.
JP: That’s right, that’s right. And, so, as a child, what kind of work would you do around the house to help the family out?
JB: Oh, well, that was, that was chores that was mandatory. I mean, you know, we had to cut wood, we had to cut kindling, we had to bank the fires, we had , we had to heat the water from the wash pots to do the dishes, to wash clothes and things like that, so, we made our own lye soap, we did all of that.
JP: And, can you tell me a little bit about the community garden?
JB: Well, the community garden was something special in the community. And it was something that my father always looked forward to doing, is to have that garden, you know? And I can see him now, in the fall of the year, the, the greens. And in the, in the spring of the year, you see the tomatoes and, and, you know, your, all your other, the string beans, the squash, and [door slams] all those things. And, I didn’t like that, but now I understand it because it brought a, many smiles to people’s faces. That, you know, wasn’t as fortunate.
JP: So you would work in the garden, and it would feed the entire community when harvest time came?
JB: Yes. It would feed people from Fourth Street , to First Street, from Long Street, they came from all over to get out of the garden. So it was plenty.
JP: I’m curious, how big was this garden?
JB: This garden was about right at an acre and a half.
JP: Wow. That is a very large garden. That is enough to feed all those people for sure, for sure.
JB: Yeah.
JP: Well, what about your mom? What kind of work did your mom do?
JB: She was a seamstress. Then she was also, she was a cook. She used to do special functions and things like that, but she didn’t spend day in and day out, she didn’t believe in cleaning someone else’s house, she didn’t believe in that, you know? She was a cook, she got paid well for what she was doing. She was a seamstress and designer.
JP: So people would actually come to the house to have her make dresses, or…
JB: Dresses, yeah. See, like, this time of year, I mean, she’d be, she was busy the whole time, because she would make uniforms for the choirs and different things in the church and things like that. Her and my aunt. See, that was their thing, you know? That was just a special thing. They’d be up sewing all night long.
JP: Yeah, yeah, sure.
JB: Things like that, you know?
JP: Do you, do you remember, were there a lot of women that had businesses out of their homes during that period, or did it tend to be more formal, kind of businesses?
JB: It was more domestic, more domestic, you know?
JP: And what about your father, what did he do?
JB: Well, my father, he worked for the quartermaster. He retired from the quartermaster, and he also retired from Sears and Roebuck.
JP: So, you lived on Second Street, then, until 1952, and where did you move when you left Second Street?
JB: Moved to Southside in, on, Southside Homes. It wasn’t a project. It was the homes, back during that time, and that has changed tremendous. We moved from dirt to grass. And we had to cut our own lawn with the push lawnmowers. And I loved that. And, you know, my mother loved flowers, so she had her flowerbed and we would take care of that and manicured the front and back yard. I used to checkerboard the yard and then go across the street and look at because we was taught to have pride in what you do…
JP: Right.
JB: You know, so…
JP: And you had a really sharp-looking yard.
JB: Yes, yes, yes. And so, the community would come together and give a prize for who had the best year and things like that, so, it was, it was something that we looked forward to, to doing.
JP: Why did your family leave the Brooklyn community in 1952?
JB: Well, for, for better living quarters. We moved from wood and coal to gas. And it was a lot cleaner, you know? And, we, our house was made out of wood, and we could see through the walls. In the wintertime, we had to put cotton in the walls, and rags in the walls, and down in the floor, you could look down through the floor and see the ground. So, we moved from that, to, like moving into Myers Park.
JP: Right, right.
JB: You know, that’s what we felt like.
JP: In a solid house , yeah…
JB: So we had pride…
JP: …and a yard.
JB: Yes. So we had pride in that.
JP: How aware were you at this time for the city’s plans for urban renewal in Brooklyn?
JB: Well, we knew it was going to happen. The only thing that I knew, I knew was identity. What we were losing. Nothing to identify with. And, and that has a problem with education. If you don’t identify with nothing, then you have nothing. And that’s something that we, was instilled in us, was identity. Know your identity. And, that’s, that’s very important. And that’s, that’s what’s gone. Unwritten history.
JP: And you said that, I mean, speaking of identity, you said that your parents had lived in Brooklyn for quite a while before they had children, right? How many generations of your family lived in that area?
JB: Three.
JP: Three generations lived in Brooklyn. And then, when you had to leave the, mean, really, you lost not just the neighborhood, but you lost the community, right?
JB: You lost the community. I mean, you go down through there now- see, there was no Independence Boulevard. It was Stone Street, Stonewall, and it stopped right there at Morrow Street. And, the only two, two streets that you had was Seventh Street and Fourth Street going through Charlotte…
JP: Right.
JB: …going that way, you know? And I could look back at the (unclear) Nursing Home, I could look back at the ice house. I look back at El Chico restaurant, I can look at, I can look back at Bonnie Pearson funeral home right there beside that El Chico, I can look at JC Shoe Shop down there on the corner of Second and McDowell. I can look at Pittman Store, I can look at Barker Store down there in the flat, I mean, I can see Charlie’s Candy Shop, you know? And, you know, I can see these things, and then you go through there- there’s nothing.
JP: There’s nothing, yeah.
JB: Representive. So you can, kids and things about them today, or newcomers to the community. But it don’t mean anything because there’s no landmark, there’s no identity.
JP: Right. After your family left, did you have relatives who still lived in the Brooklyn community?
JB: Yeah, my grandmother and them. They lived there. They lived right there on McDowell. See, McDowell was the last place that they start renovating. That and, more, a little, a little west of that., you know? So, you saw it coming, sure.
JP: Yeah.
JB: The town, the town had to grow. But you take Brevard Street, is the last street, I think, that, on this side of Fourth Street, on the west side of Fourth Street, that kept it’s identity and they’ve still got buildings on Brevard Street today. You know? The library, it’s not there. And they got a part of Second Ward that’s still there, you know? And, there’s not much, you know, that you are looking at.
JP: Right.
JB: But then, it’s good for a lot of reasons, you know?
JP: The process of urban renewal, you mean, or…
JB: Well, I believe in growth, definitely in economical growth, and, the only thing about economical growth is African-Americans, they got one building down there. I think that’s on what is that, on First Street on, on Independence? Well, that was a doctor’s building, whatever that was down there, but that was the only building that they had when it come to economic growth. So, the, the colored people, or Negroes, they don’t have no identity down there in business. And that’s the only thing that beats our race of people is economics. Slavery changes in one form, and one form only, social economics.
JP: That’s right. That’s right. If you, looking back on the city’s plans to raze Brooklyn now, what do you think could have been done differently to make the process easier for people in the community? I mean, you said it had to be done, right? Because we believe in economic growth.
JB: Yes.
JP: And that, maybe it was an opportunity for some people? What do you think the city could have done better?
JB: Well, you got, what I, what I think that they could have done better, I think that they could have, there should have been some type of school that is, that is put up, a high school, or, put up in that community. You’ve got Central Piedmont in that community, you know what I mean? But there’s, there could be a school. I’m not saying no Second Ward. But there could be some type of school there, you know? And now, I believe in separation. I believe in, in, in talent. There should be some kind of special school for special kids in that area. [airplane flies overhead] Something to represent the educational part of it. You know? So, that’s, that, that growth, it, it gives more exposure. If you’re going to school downtown and you’re looking at all these banks, I mean, I mean, that’s a part of exposure, too.
JP: Sure.
JB: So you’re preparing yourself for business.
JP: That’s right.
JB: Yeah.
JP: It becomes part of your world, part of your worldview.
JB: That’s, absolutely, absolutely. I don’t see, I mean, I believe in economical growth, and I don’t put it on government or a specific race of people. I put it on my people. Because I remember back during the ‘60s, what I tried to do, I was put in the bad box, I tried to get everybody on welfare, per member, per household, to put a dollar up, once a month for two years. And let’s take that money and open up our own salt wares and dry goods stores…
JP: Right, for self-help.
JB: Work for yourself. For self-help. But, it got to some sources where you were trying to be, well, back then, back then, communist. So, you know what I’m saying? You was, you was, you was being ratted out. Too smart, they don’t want nothing. They’re content with what they want, so.
JP: So, you’ve talked about this a little bit, but I’d like maybe to hear you expand on it a little bit. What do you think the legacies are of Brooklyn, the community, and its…
JB: The House of Prayer is the biggest legacy that’s ever been in Brooklyn.
JP: And it’s still going strong.
JB: And you look at it today…
JP: It’s still going strong.
JB: If you got pictures, and you know Sam will give you those pictures, back during the beginning of it, when it was on Caldwell and Third, up until today, that you will see the legacy of that organization. There is no other organization in this city as strong as that organization. They have a legacy in Brooklyn because that fountain is still there in Marshall Park.
JP: Right, and so you think that, that the House of Prayer is probably the institution that’s most representative of what the community was?
JB: The only one, the only one. What are they doing today that they did years ago? They still have band competitions from all over the United States, bands come. They still have competitions. They still have baptisms. They have the biggest baptism that, here in Charlotte, that, it went down in Ripley’s Believe it or Not. They baptized more people at [JB thumps hands on table] one time than any organization.
JP: How about that?
JB: Yes.
JP: Yeah. And do they do that, do they do that once a year?
JB: They do it now. They have a pool, and there’s so many people they can’t do it, so they get the water hoses, and boom! And the most beautiful…
JP: Yeah.
JB: …the most beautiful thing that you ever seen, to see the firemen, it was amazing about this politics- the state and church nonsense. [laughs] Nonsense. OK, and the House of Prayer wants to baptize, they wanted to use the city water. They’re paying for it…
JP: Yeah, of course.
JB: You know what I mean? No church and state. So, Hopewell Volunteer Fire Department volunteered…
JP: Wow.
JB:… to come…
JP: Yeah.
JB:… and do that. And so the Bishop wanted to buy them a new truck, fire truck. They wouldn’t accept it…
JP: [laughs]To say thank you.
JB: They wouldn’t accept it.
JP: Oh, really, really? How about that?
JB: But when they made donations. See, our organization make big contributions to a lot of organizations. The Negro College Foundation, the Bread Basket, they made big donations to a lot of organizations out there, see, so. Yeah, I would, I would, yeah, I would say you see the same thing, they did the same thing in Brooklyn. They still baptizing, and they baptizing way more people today, and you will see all colors of people get, being baptized and I remember when they did it on, on, over there on Freedom Drive. I’ve seen people, white people with their kids, get out and just walk in that water to feel the joy in the spirit. That’s joy, you know what I mean? And we the only one that has that. That is a legacy.
JP: Yeah.
JB: And then the food, the food, the food.
JP: I’ve heard about the food. [laughs]
JB: Everybody, everybody talk about always going there for the food.
JP: That’s right.
JB: You know, they have, like a, like a, food carnival, they have stores. [JP laughs] You know, like you see downtown, on…yes, yes, yes.
JP: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s fantastic.
JB: See, that’s, that’s the legacy. It’s going on.
JP: Is there anything else that I haven’t asked that you’d like to talk about? Anything that, that you were thinking about when you were getting ready for this interview?
JB: Nothing.
JP: No?
JB: The only thing I know is what I know.
JP: OK.
JB: Whatever you ask.
JP: That’s great.
JB: You know, if I know, I’ll say something, and if I don’t know, I’ll say “Go to that person.”
JP: Well, you seem to be very, very knowledgeable. And we really appreciate your time today, taking time out of your schedule.
JB: Sam would give you a lot more about what goes on with that, with this organization. It’s very instrumental to the Mecklenburg School system. The Mecklenburg School system looked into this organization and what it has to offer the community on an educational level, you know? And that’s something from the beginning that this organization talked about. You must go to school. Every leader that we have had, every bishop that we have had, have always talked about education when it comes to the youth. The youth, the youth. You know, and if you looked downtown, and you had to take a survey of crime, look how many members of the House of Prayer is going into that court system.
JP: Yeah.
JB: We have the smallest percentage…
JP: Right.
JB:…of any organization in this city.
JP: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it really goes back to that idea of community…
JB: That’s exactly what it is.
JP: …and these children feel like they’re a part of something bigger.
JB: What people would be ashamed- see, what we was taught, shame. If somebody see you doing something, and you was a member, you were shamed. Because you know that ain’t the way.
JP: Yeah, because you knew better.
JB: Age didn’t make no difference.
JP: Right, right.
JB: See, so that was the respect and the manners, the manners that we had. See, we was taught to have manners. You know, respecting one another. You got to respect your brother and sister. We all brothers and sisters.
JP: Right.
JB: Now, they believed in right, so you know right from wrong, so now, yeah, that was, [door slams] “Oh, I seen him with a cigarette, I seen him…,” and right today, I mean, it just, that’s part of it.
JP: Right, right.
JB: I mean, I’m grown, I ain’t got nothing to hide. Just that. ‘Cause they go back, they go back, they go back. Now, you know, your mother never appreciated that- you couldn’t never smoke no cigarette in your mama’s yard. Not talking about the house, there wasn’t no ashtrays, there wasn’t none of that. You weren’t drinking nothing in the yard. Wasn’t none of that.
JP: Just wasn’t acceptable.
JB: You know, I remember, I invited my mother to the house, and I had some Belvederes there. She come in, she sat down, she “What is this?” I said, “This is mine.” She walked right back out the door. She said “I don’t approve of this.” I said, “This is my house.” “Don’t make no difference. That’s my house too,” she said.
JP: That’s right. That’s right.
JB: And, so..
JP: Well, and it sounds, too, like what you learned at the House of Prayer has really helped you in your career.
JB: Well, it took me to the four corners of the world. I became guests of kings, queens, presidents, vice-presidents, senators, ambassadors of the United States. So, that part of it has taken me in the four corners of the world. And I learned coming up, respect and honesty. And, I know the importance of yes and no ma’am and sir. You know, age don’t make no difference, that’s the way that you greet people. You know, it’s that personal appearances again. [door slams] You got to have self-respect. And you, it’s got to be in you. [JB Thumps hands on the table] You know? It lives in you. But, you know, God is good, and he’s good all the time. And, it’s amazing about talent. People have the misconception -that we all born with ability but God gives the knowledge, that’s talent. I was, I was, I give golf lessons all over the United States on the telephone. Most of mine is on the telephone, you know, I have a special phone to do that. And I have a lot of touring pros that consult. I’ve spent time with them and I know what they’re doing, and it’s amazing about the human body. And it’s simple. The nervous system controls the muscular system. Every motion of the body. Big muscles come from the pelvis. If you’re getting ready to get up you get up from the pelvis, if you sit down, you sit down from the pelvis, you turn, you turn from the pelvis. So that’s what golf is, everything’s in a line to the pelvis.
JP: That’s right.
JB: And it’s amazing. The fundamentals. It’s amazing.
JP: Yeah.
JB: But they teach you everything else, though, and I’m glad…
JP: Bend this way and bend that way…
JP: Bend that way, I’m glad, I’m glad to see this, this, you know? And the muscle structure is in the backside of the body, so the human being, he looks in the front side. He’s looking at his arms and looking at the front side. Your shoulders are back here. Your torso is back here. Your hips, your hamstrings, calves on the backside, they go through the front side. You walk backwards, which is very seldom, they pull you back, you going forward, they pushes you forward.
JP: That’s right.
JB: Everybody’s trying to move from the front side.
JP: All your strength is…
JB: And they don’t know nothing about the body weight, you know. They don’t know the head is the heaviest part of the body for the upper body.
JP: And these are touring pros that you’re talking about, professionals?
JB: Yes, they just got so much ability, so when they learn about the way that they do things natural, see, and I’ll tell them, “I’ll nurture your natural ability.” That’s all I can do. I sell information.
JP: Well, I just, I can’t wait to tell my husband about you.
JB: See, that’s all I do, I sell information. And I enjoy it.
JP: Yeah.
JB: I enjoy doing that because I’m putting back in life something that God’s given me, and that’s important.
JP: That’s right.
JB: He gives me the knowledge, he gives me the mind. I have the will to give it. And that’s why I go into the school system and find kids and give it to them.
JP: Well, you’re very inspirational.
JB: Thank you.
JP: Your, your life story is very inspirational. And it’s, I’ve, I’ve really enjoyed sitting here talking to you today.
JB: I’m, I’m going to do a, I’m going to do a life, I’ve been asked to do a book, and do a life story. I’ve been asked in Vegas to do movies twice, and I refuse to do them because of the negative parts. And I’m not about the negative.
JP: Right.
JB: There’s some negative things in there that brings about the positive, but I believe in being positive. You know, how I got over that hump, yes, I did. There was a lot of focus and willing, and you don’t appreciate it until you earn it.
JP: That’s right.
JB: ‘Cause your work speaks for you. If somebody give you something, you don’t appreciate it as much as you earn it. I earned this. I cherish that.
JP: That’s right, that’s right.
JB: So, I cherish what I go through, you know? The privilege, that ‘s what it is, it’s a, it’s, it’s a privilege to be alive, it’s a privilege to be able to give in life. That’s the greatest feeling to be able to give back. You know, why would you give somebody that already got it? Give to someone that don’t have it.
JP: That’s right.
JB: That’s when you feel rich, spiritually, mentally. You’re rich that way. You’re not rich in material life. But like the book says, if you gain the whole world and lose your soul, what did you accomplish. So, I feel rich in spirit.
JP: It shows. It does, it does. It shows.
JB: Yeah, and I love that. And I love people. And I traveled alone. I know you can get in trouble messing with people.
JP: That’s right, that’s right.
JB: You know, I have enough to do, I have enough to do alone. I learned a lot because I opened up. I don’t know nothing, and when I don’t know anything, that’s when it’s revealed, knowledge. But if I’m clogged, ain’t nothing that can come in. The cup is running over, so you can’t get nothing in the cup that is full. I don’t keep my cup full.
JP: So you’ve got to be receptive to it.
JB: That’s right.
JP: Right.
JB: That’s right. That’s how I learn to learn. See, I already know, I already know what I already know. So why hold that in that cup?
JP: That’s right.
JB: That’s when you’re documented.
JP: That’s right.
JB: Then you’re open. You’re receiving.
JP: Yeah. Yeah.
JB: See, that’s communication. Communication is transmitting and receiving. You can’t do both of them at the same time. So, I’m open to receive. I, I have a direct line of communication. That’s having my own perception with me and God.
JP: Well, I think maybe you should write a book. I think you’ve got a lot of great, great stories to tell…
JB: Oh, yes, oh…
JP:..and very inspirational messages.
JB: Some of the, some of the greatest- oh, man, some of the greatest experiences in life is dealing with minds and helping minds. That’s, that’s, that’s the key. You find – that I’m working with a guy down in Daytona, Florida, and he’s a minister and he plays golf, and he said, “I’ve been here, and he’d been there, and he read this, and I’ve got this and got that.” And I said, “You still don’t got what it takes.” “What are you talking about?” “You don’t have you, and you don’t have God. You got to have your own perception. You got to believe in your own self. If you don’t have a relationship with you, how you going to have one with God? How you going to have one with your wife, how you going to have one with your children? You’d better know who you are.”
JP: That’s right.
JB: If you know, really know you, you can live. But if you don’t know you, you can’t deliver, because you going to come with wrath, and there are going to be times that your personality is going to beat you. If you can stay humble, and you can speak that way, you can go a long ways. But if you, nobody likes that.
JP: That’s right.
JB: That penetrates. You can be in love, you know, that’s what, that’s how you win the war.
JP: That easy.
JB: Yes, yes. You know, I have a saying, “I love you and there ain’t nothing you can do about it.” [JP laughs] So I have no problem. Ain’t nothing they can do, what can they do about it.
JP: That’s great.
JB: I don’t have no hate. I don’t have it. I could, but what is it going to do for me? That’s a setback, that’s, that’s, I don’t have a direct communication line if I got hate. Something can’t get there. So I know how important it is to have a self-positive concept about communication. It’s so important, you know? I read a book, a long time ago, about being a positive thinker. Positive for Power. That’s amazing. Being positive is power. You know, and it don’t take much, it don’t take much. See, that’s when you can eliminate, you have to be able to eliminate. There’s so much around you, and so many things coming at you, and so many things you go toward, you better know how to eliminate, you know. You got to weed out, and there ain;t but one thing a day if you going to accomplish something.
JP: That’s right.
JB: That’s what makes life so good. When you go home, you don’t have to worry about the next day. It’s going to happen.
JP: Nothing you can do about it. [laughs]
JB: Nothing you can do about it. It’s going to happen.
JP: Well, Mr. Black, I want to thank you for your time today.
JB: I want to thank both of you all, too.
JP: This has been a great interview. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you today, and this information that you’ve given us is going to be very important for the project and for future researchers, so thank you very much. Thank you.
JB: Well, I hope so, I hope so. We just need more people to, to gather the history, that’s like, when I went to Alabama last year, they gave me the resolution in the state, the state legislature. I’ve also had the Pine Leaf Award, too.
JP: That’s in North Carolina, right?
JB: In North Carolina, given by the government, you know. So, I don’t know how you get it, [JP and JB laugh] I don’t know what you do to get it…
JP: But you got it.
JB: I don’t know what you do to get it.
JP: It is an award for service, exemplary service to the community?
JB: Yes, yes, yes.
JP: I remember hearing that somewhere, I’m not sure if that’s right.
JB: It’s for a contribution to life. That’s what it is. You have a- that’s a legacy, you have a history of that. You know? Of your work, you know, giving and taking. In order to give, you got to be able to take.
JP: Right, right.
JB: So you ain’t going to give something that ain’t worth anything.
JP: Well, I think we can probably all learn something from that. [JB laughs] We could all use a little bit more of that, I think.
End of interview. Approximately 49 minutes.