Charles Clyburn

Tape Log: Oral History Interview with Charles Clyburn

Interviewed by Ryan Johnson

Time	Description of Interview Contents
0	Beginning of Interview
1	Fondest Memories of Brooklyn, Growing up in Brooklyn, educational background, Second Ward, important teachers
3	Rivalry between West Charlotte, Sports, Queen City classic
5	Socializing in Brooklyn, defining Brooklyn’s boundaries, those areas who attended Brooklyn
6	The House of Prayer Church and religious background
7	After High School experiences, Carver college, special professors
9	Businesses in Charlotte, aftermath of urban renewal on businesses, touches on Blue Heaven
11	Sports in Brooklyn, People have a voice in urban renewal? Where the residents went after Brooklyn, cemeteries
14	Families feelings about Brooklyn, the process of renewal and what’s left
16	Police Stations in Brooklyn, Police attitudes in Brooklyn, Problems with Police? Interaction with the Police
19	Klan activities w/ police? Politics in Charlotte during this time, Chief Little John
21	Memories of Second Ward’s Destruction, how Brooklyn ranks compared to other neighborhoods
24	Baseball in Brooklyn, Second Ward high school baseball
26	Walking to class story and how kids would meet up
28	Second Ward reunions, Fire Department locations, personal information – marriage, job, etc…, kids education
30	The first African-American library, Churches stayed together?, YMCA, employment office on McDowell, Movie theatres and the 10
33	End of interview

Charles Clyburn

Clyburn Transcripts

April 5, 2004

RJ: Ryan Johnson (Interviewer)

CC: Charles Clyburn (Interviewee)START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

RJ: This is Ryan Johnson interviewing Charles Clyburn on April 5, 2004. We are here to discuss theBrooklyn Neighborhood, and my first question is what are some of your fondest memories ofBrooklyn. What do remember most about it?

CC: My fondest memories of Brooklyn was the closeness of the people together – we had a goodfellowship, a good neighborhood. All of us was real close together. This was the most fondestthing I remember.

RJ: What do you bonded them together? Was it the church?

CC: Not the church. The neighborhood itself bonded people together. Every time you would see eachother, you know, you would just be glad to embrace them … happy to see each other, yourneighbor. Things like that. It was just a bond of the old Brooklyn Section, you know, people thatknew everybody in the section.

RJ: Did you grow up in Brooklyn?

CC: I did.

RJ: Which section of Brooklyn?

CC: I grew up on, uh, Third Street, between McDowell [pause] and Caldwell.

RJ: Caldwell? Where did you go to Elementary School?

CC: Myers Street School – Myers Street.

RJ: And then you went – –

CC: Myers Street to Second Ward. Myers Street through sixth grade, started Second Ward in theseventh grade.

RJ: What, what were some of the things that you remember about Second Ward? What were some ofthe classes you took, your teachers.

CC: Two teachers a teacher I have a fond memory of is, uh, Matty Hall, my eighth grade teacher, whowas, uh, a very stern person but she taught us the right way. My chemistry teacher, Mr. Brown. Iwas very fond of him, and Levi and Willy were some of the great teachers of Second Ward. Also,a shop teacher, nice, named Mr. Corn. He was a very nice person, kind to all of the young men.Take them out on little part time jobs…spending money for school. So I’m very fond of him.

RJ: Did most of your friends live in Brooklyn? Or did they live – –

CC: Well, my friends lived across town. Everybody, you know, being the member of the church that Iam, We had some people, but most of them were from Second Ward. I did have some in WestCharlotte. Plus, we had a rival with the bands and football games.

RJ: That’s one thing Mr. [Price] Davis spoke about was the rivalries between West Charlotte. Did yougo to any of the games?

CC: Yes. Basketball and football.

RJ: Where were those held? At the – –

CC: The football games were held at what used to be called Memorial Stadium. That’s where thefootball games were held. The basketball games were held in the gym, Second Ward gym, whichis still standing down there in Brooklyn. The only thing I think left in Brooklyn is Second WardGym, and uh, every school had their own gym. Second Ward and West Charlotte was a greatrivalry, and you couldn’t wait to the Queen City Classic come around for the big game.

RJ: Was that a yearly tournament?

CC: Yeah, yeah. So everybody getting ready for the first game of the football season with the QueenCity Classic. It was known real good.

RJ: Was there any animosity between West Charlotte, or was it just a friendly rivalry?

CC: It was a friendly rivalry. We didn’t have any, it was a friendly rivalry but you know there isalways [RJ laughs] gonna be a little something that comes up. You gonna be a little jealousysomewhere, but it was a friendly rivalry. I wasn’t like that, you know, you couldn’t go on the westside of town, you couldn’t come over her, cause I would always get out of campus and go over totheir campus, socialize with the guys over there.

RJ: Where was, where would you normally socialize, typically? Where was the place that all the kidswould go to relax?

CC: Well, there used to be a place on Oakmont Avenue called [pause] Henry’s Ice Cream Parlor. Alittle small place, and when we came on this side of town, the other side of town, there always wasthe Queen City Pharmacy. Queen City Pharmacy, that’s where we would all hang out, gettogether, gather there, have a couple sodas and things, and then we would go to the LincolnTheatre, which was up Second Street.

RJ: Now was that on what’s called “The Block?”

CC: That’s Second Street.

RJ: Second Street? OK.

CC: That was Second Street coming off of Brevard.

RJ: Is that how you would define Brooklyn’s boundaries? How would you?

CC: Brooklyn was defined between, uh, well, Morehead to Trade. Across Trade, you begin to go intoFirst, First Ward. That’s how the Brooklyn section was.

RJ: Would the – –

CC: Morehead to Trade.

RJ: Would the community stay within Brooklyn or did you venture into other neighborhoods?

CC: Different Wards?

RJ: Yeah.

CC: Yeah we would go into different wards. We, because kinds from First Ward, Fairview, Cherry, allthose came to the same high school, Second Ward. Then, from 11th Street back, you went to WestCharlotte. That’s how, that’s how, you know, it would go anywhere from 11th Street to this side oftown, most likely they was going to Second Ward.

RJ: Can you describe a little bit about the church? Which church have you been a member of, with theHouse of Prayer?

CC: House of Prayer, yeah.

RJ: Has it, was it in Brooklyn before?

CC: Yeah. Right there where Marshall Park

RJ: OK

CC: Right there by the statue, and, uh that’s where the House of Prayer was. We actually moved fromLong Street. The original House of Prayer was on Long Street, then they moved to McDowellStreet. That’s where, uh, Marshall Park stands.

RJ: Have you, did your parents go? Is that how you joined the church? Has it been passed down?

CC: No, uh, really, my parents was members of St. Paul.

RJ: OK.

CC: And the – –

RJ: Interesting.

CC: But I was, got involved with the House of Prayer because my Godparents. My Godmother, Aunts,stuff like that…we all lived in the same community, and I liked going with them to church, so I, Icame over with them when I got of age, I joined the House of Prayer.

RJ: Did you go to Sunday school here, or was that…

CC: [nods affirmatively]

RJ: After, after you graduated high school, did you go straight to college, or did you take some timeoff?

CC: Well I had a family, I had a family during that time, so what I did, uh, I took time off and, uh,Carver was leaving Second Ward High then they moved out to the new building, MecklenburgCollege, and I started out there. [pause] See, Carver was located in Second Ward’s building.

RJ: What, what courses did you take at Carver?

CC: Math, and a little business.

RJ: Any professors that you remember? Anyone that had a special influence on you?

CC: Well I, there was one named Wright Hunter, and then there is, we call him Cab, but I know hisname is James Alexander. He was a great influence up there at the school.

RJ: Was there, was there any sort of sporting that went on at Carver College?

CC: No, no sporting.

RJ: No? Purely Academic?

CC: Yeah.

RJ: What – –

CC: The college, see, Mecklenburg was set up mostly like veterans…it was set up mostly by veteransand kids who were out of school and wanted to come back, further their education, stuff like that.I’m not even going to say that’s a junior college but, something to get you ready for the next stage.

RJ: Where most of the businesses owned by African Americans in Brooklyn?

CC: Yes it was.

RJ: Were there any white businesses?

CC: Sure. Like a few grocery stores were on – –

RJ: Were they run by African-Americans?

CC: No the grocery stores were run by the whites.

RJ: Really?

CC: Yeah, was like on seventh street, we had one there, [unknown name] He ran that store for manyyears right inside the section. On McDowell they had, I can think of the man’s name, but they ran,the whites ran, their own stores.

RJ: Did most of the business close down after Brooklyn was destroyed? Or – –

CC: Well – –

RJ: Or did they move?

CC: Most of them closed down.

RJ: Are there any that still exist that you know of?

CC: Is there anything that still exists from Brooklyn?

RJ: Right.

CC: There is a restaurant named Rudy’s – she moved from McDowell Street to Trade Street, toBeatties Ford. That’s Rudy’s. But she did. She started out on McDowell Street. Right now, she’sacross the street over the road.

RJ: She still open for business?

CC: Still open for business! Over there. She was further down Beatties Ford and this place was empty,vacant, so she’s over there now.

RJ: Can you tell me any of your experiences about the Blue Heaven neighborhood? Do you rememberthe Blue Heaven neighborhood in Brooklyn?

CC: The Blue Heaven neighborhood [pause] I don’t know much about it…but I know, you know, BlueHeaven started up there right off of Morehead that was the section over there. Brevard Street, upin that section; I don’t know.

RJ: Did you know anybody from that area?

CC: Yeah.

RJ: Were they good people?

CC: Good people, yeah. You know I had a lot of friends. We played ball together and stuff.

RJ: Did you play in the street?

CC: Yeah.

RJ: Stickball?

CC: Yeah we played stickball; we had a section softball team and baseball team, where we playedcross-town rivals. We’d play ball.

RJ: Where, where could you play sports in Brooklyn? Was there a park?

CC: We played, no, there was no park. Only park we had in Brooklyn was called First Street park onKing’s Drive. That was the only park to play on. But you know we played in the afternoon onSecond Ward Field. They had a large ground back there so we played ball there and we always godown off…Kings drive they had a little community park down there we could always play ball.

RJ: Do you think when the urban renewal started, do you think the people had a voice in, in what wasgoing on?

CC: No, cause some was misled. I think, mostly people, like people that were going to St. Paul churchwere misled. That’s where my mother, I was at some of those meetings that they had, that theywere saying that the new highway express, that even if they had stayed there, it would runover, orover their head – the highway would go over and it would be so much noise that they couldn’tenjoy with the highway going over them. So, some of them was misled…things like that.

RJ: Were there any protests to it, that you know of? Any people that, or was it sort of, there’s nothingwe can do about it?

CC: There wasn’t that much of a protest, but some might have been glad to move. They think theywould upgrade themselves with a better place but, they don’t want to just leave Brooklyn; theywanted to remodel, stay there, they could have. Ninety percent of the people would stay inBrooklyn if they could have.[pause]

RJ: Where did most of the people go? Did they come up here, to this area near Beatties Ford? Or…

CC: Once Brooklyn was closed down most of them did come to this side of town. So you find at thattime, see this was the only place [mumbling] so you most of the people could go anywhere theywant, so they went all over. The first move, people come, like, Brooklyn to the Fairview homes,Double Oaks, stuff like that. Double Oaks section, that’s where they come on this side.

RJ: Do you know of any cemeteries in Brooklyn? Is it, York Memorial is the only one that I have beenable to locate.

CC: That’s not in Brooklyn

RJ: It’s not?

CC: No.

RJ: OK.

CC: York Memorial is down, way down, South Tryon.

RJ: OK, where were folks taken?

CC: [pause] That was way downtown.

RJ: How did your family feel about the renewal project? Your Parents – –

CC: Well, they – –

RJ: Folks that had been there awhile.

CC: They felt pretty much like they were being forced out of Brooklyn. They had been there for years,and they wanted to stay. And, even though their house, I guess it wasn’t as good, but they still,they still wanted to stay. They wanted to, they thought the renewal was going to come in, andupgrade their house so they could stay in the same section, but it wasn’t that way.

RJ: Do you remember anything about the actual process? I mean, could you look out your window andsee things being torn down? Or where you – –

CC: No, I didn’t. No I did not see anything, cause once they started [mumbles].

RJ: And this was in the early sixties?

CC: Right. I mean, when they started tearing down, everybody was about gone. There was a fewpeople still there. I think Grier funeral home is still there, because I know they had, it was torn upand we had to go make different funeral arrangements because you couldn’t get in and out ofthere. But most of stayed till the end like Grier funeral home but they stayed cause they rightacross from Second Ward, Second Ward building was still standing, and they wasn’t tearing thatdown yet, so Grier wasn’t able to stay much longer. But the little restaurants and things, and theapartment houses on up First Street was torn down.

RJ: Now is this same Grier within the family of Arthur Grier?

CC: Right.

RJ: Same family.

CC: Same, first.

RJ: [pause] Where were the police stations in Brooklyn? Were their police stations in Brooklyn?

CC: There wasn’t a police station. All of them the same, the one downtown. Now, down on, ForthStreet…Forth Street, that’s where they was for everybody. It wasn’t just the blacks don’t have one, section, the whites and all this. It’s all one police station. I don’t know how they, I think hada section for the blacks in there, but I’m not sure of that. But I’m quite sure they had one station.

RJ: Can you describe a little about the police’s attitude – –

CC: Well – –

RJ: In the neighborhood?

CC: At first, it was a little rough I guess think they was supposed to come onto you rough. The firstfolks, two of them came on, kinda rough, I guess they felt they had to be more rough than theyshould. But after that, the ones that come out, real friendly, you know? The first four, was, I thinkthey came a little rough because they felt like they were…

RJ: Did you feel threatened by officers in the neighborhood? Particularly for the first blacks?

CC: The white officers?

RJ: Yes.

CC: No, to tell the truth, the white officers, they didn’t come unless there was a problem.

RJ: Really?

CC: You didn’t have, there was no problem. I didn’t have a problem.

RJ: Would you have a problem, if you, say, if you ventured out of Brooklyn into anotherneighborhood?

CC: No.

RJ: No?

CC: I didn’t, and I was all over cause, I carried papers throughout the…up Morehead and down inDilworth and all over that way where it was restricted – nothing but whites. But I was all over thatsection and I never had any problems, so…I don’t know. Other people had problems, I didn’t haveany problems. But I mean, you know treated like I was in the wrong section at the wrong time. Inever had trouble.

RJ: Did you see, when you first started to see the black officers show up, they were peace officers,right? They weren’t issued weapons or anything like that. Where they allowed to arrest people?

CC: They could arrest people.

RJ: OK.

CC: Yeah and they would. Yeah and they would arrest you, too.

RJ: Do you think they were, they, they really enjoyed their job? They really enjoyed – –

CC: I think so. When they came along I was a boy. You know, we didn’t have much contact withthem. I remember I did see them, and I know that they looked like they enjoyed their job.

RJ: Did you interact them at all? Did you ever talk to them?

CC: Sure I talked to them. The ladies, once they came on, like Rudy Tarnes, Williams, all those guys,we would all talk together cause they was close to my age and I knew them. Might havebeen…played basketball with them…So I knew them…They still come around, and we talk, butthey wasn’t real close.

RJ: Do you, I have been doing research about the neighborhood, and did the police, were theyinfluenced by, uh, the Klan, or any sort of – –

CC: [nods head in disagreement]

RJ: Nothing like that?

CC: No. There wasn’t any Klan activities in Charlotte in the Brooklyn section. At the time, we had agood police chief and he didn’t go for that kind of stuff. I don’t know if you have his name or hadheard about him – Chief Littlejohn? He didn’t go for no mess like that.

RJ: Would you say the politics at that time was, was very racist?

CC: [pause] Not very racist. Some of it was, you know. In all, everything, you have to findsomething good and you know, some people might think it was, but I found that Chief Littlejohn,he was a fair man. He just didn’t go for no mess. He treated whites and blacks the same. Just afair police chief. If it wasn’t for a man like him, there could have been a lot of racial stuff goingon, but he wasn’t going to tolerate it. We didn’t have it.

RJ: So you would say, Brooklyn was clean?

CC: Yeah.

RJ: Yeah?

CC: Yeah. Good clean place to live. Like I said, they wouldn’t bother with you, the police was allwhite coming into neighborhood. They would patrol through once in a while. But unless you hadproblems, or call them, they wouldn’t be standing up over you, trying to just lock you up causeyou’ve had a few drinks or stay out at night. You can call them, like some, you know…that wasn’tin the Brooklyn section that I know about.

RJ: Did you feel any safer with the new black officers?

CC: I didn’t feel any safer because, I feel like whether they black or white they were going to do a job,and I felt they did a good job. So I didn’t feel any safer one way or another. I look at it as thepolice was the police and they was there to do their job and that’s what I thought then.

RJ: Sort of going back to Second Ward, were you around when it was, when it was, destroyed?

CC: I was around, yes.

RJ: Did you witness it at all? Did you see, did you take one last look through the halls, or…

CC: I didn’t. I was there when they had a little ceremony, people getting bricks and taking them home.Stuff like that.

RJ: Did you get a brick?

CC: I didn’t get a brick. I was there during the ceremony, but I didn’t…

RJ: [pause] Comparable to the other neighborhoods, do you think Brooklyn was better or worse than,say, Cherry, or any of the other neighborhoods. Where would you rank it?

CC: I think, they may not have been worse. Each section was close to each section. And you couldhave guys in Cherry now, they would praise Cherry because they were close to that, but theywould come to section. But when they came to school, they was all one, there was only one blackhigh school in Charlotte at the time. So, I mean there two, on this side, one on the other side oftown so, Cherry section, they was alright, but when they got to their section, they was real close,but when they came to second ward, they were – [mumbles] – other boroughs, like Third Ward,First Ward, and all the Brooklyn kids. So we always ended up combined together, so we, once wegot up to [unknown mumbling] so we go to their section to play ball and stuff, and they had theirown buddies at home. But I felt that we was close, we was close. Even though Brooklyn haddifferent little sections you were talking about like, Pearl Street, they used to call that “The Hill.”They had a little game up there on “The Hill.” And they would play ball against guys from SecondWard. Guys from, uh, Third Street. See, my group was the Thirds Street guys. So even thoughsome lived on First Street, Second Street, there was a Third Street game. So we played ball againstthose guys.

RJ: Did you organize the league? Or – –

CC: Yes.

RJ: Did you play games on the weekend?

CC: Yeah, we played games on the weekend.

RJ: All, did you play at all during the week? How many games would you usually play?

CC: We would play, we would play, we had a game like every Saturday, something like that. And youknow, couldn’t play with school.

RJ: How many teams were there?

CC: There was a team from every borough. Cherry had a team, Fairview had a team, and First Ward.There was about eight teams.

RJ: What position did you play?

CC: I played outfield. Anywhere I felt I could be!

RJ: [laughs]

CC: First center field, but then anywhere in the outfield they need. And so I played left field and right.

RJ: Would you play those year round, or just during the summer?

CC: The summer.

RJ: Summer?

CC: During the summer leagues, yeah. See, the school had teams, like basketball, football and stuff.

RJ: What other teams would Second Ward play besides West Charlotte?

CC: In football?

RJ: Yeah.

CC: Well we had, we played, there was a school over in Belmont This school in Belmont, they playedthem. All they played them mostly in basketball, they didn’t have much of a football team. Butthen in Gastonia, they played Highland High.

RJ: Where was that? Gastonia?

CC: Gastonia, Yeah.

RJ: That long, that far away?

CC: Yeah Highland High. How far is Gastonia from here?

RJ: I’d say 20, 25 miles.

CC: Yeah, we played them, yeah. When I had away games, we played in Asheville. We played Atkinsup there. We played them, Greensboro.

RJ: Were you on the high school team?

CC: Yeah all of them high school teams, yeah.

RJ: OK. Did you, would you take a bus there, or – –

CC: Yeah we’d take a bus.

RJ: You would go that far to play? That’s amazing, when you think about nowadays all the highschools, it’s…

CC: Yeah, well we had some in South Carolina way out. We had games out.

RJ: How far was your house form Second Ward? I assumed you had to walk.

CC: I did, I walked. Are you familiar with Charlotte?

RJ: Yeah.

CC: You know where Third and Brevard?

RJ: Uh-Hmm

CC: Well I used to be right there, on one corner the building is still there the old building we used tocall that the doctor’s building. Still, that’s the only thing left there. On third and Brevard, we usedto call that the Third Street Apartments. And I stayed right there in that apartment. And we hadThird and Brevard, to Myers Street, to Myers Street, uh, to Stonewall. That was a good walk! Iwas thinking, the day after you called, I was thinking about the time I had to walk, and I couldn’tremember, but I was quite sure I did, in pouring down rain, pouring down rain and I had to walkand [unknown speech] Second Ward and Myers Street, right there together so that’s how far I hadto walk, until I moved further down Third Street. When I was in high school, further down ThirdStreet, when I was up Brevard, the walk took miles, up Stonewall Street, that was quite far.

RJ: How long, how long would it usually take you to walk to school?

CC: I don’t know, I was in first grade, stuff like that. You would walk for a while, and you come downthe street and meet somebody coming out and, you know, every time you come all the way downthe Brooklyn, someone would join in and by the time you get to school- –

RJ: So, [laughs] – –

CC: So yeah there would be crowd – and that’s the way it was. But where I started, two, next door, wewould start out we would cut through and go down Second Street, some more in Morehead there,everywhere, someone would fall in, you know.

RJ: You still keep contact with your old classmates?

CC: Sure.

RJ: How often do you see them? Do you go to any of the meetings, or anything?

CC: I see them, well, I see them once a year. You know, the regulars, all once a year.

RJ: Do any of them go to House of Prayer, here?

CC: My classmates, Stevenson he’s the only one that go here, in my class. Well, no, there was a girl –two in my class go here from Second Ward.

RJ: I assume the fire departments were just like the police – they were outside of Brooklyn?

CC: Fire department was on Fourth Street, right near the Police Department

RJ: OK.

CC: Fire department, police department, all right there together. So, the way I see it, Third Street, ablock over, I don’t worry about it – wasn’t far.

RJ: And when did you graduate from Second Ward? What year?

CC: 1951.

RJ: 1951? And you stayed in Charlotte your entire life?

CC: Yes, yes.

RJ: Unbelievable.

CC: Well, when I married, had a family out of school, I would travel, I would stay in DC, WashingtonDC a while, and I would always go to [unknown name] things like that.

RJ: Was it tough being on the road, away from your family?

CC: You mean, when I’m working?

RJ: Right.

CC: No, it wasn’t hard. I would be home at night. When I traveled, that was when I was in school. Iwas in school, and I left Charlotte, and stayed with my cousin in Washington, DC. So I went toschool a couple years. That was in Elementary school. So I came back here, and started up in highschool here.

RJ: Did your kids go to school around here?

CC: Yeah, West Charlotte.

RJ: West Charlotte? [laughs]

CC: We lived on this side of town.

RJ: Oh, really? That’s sort of ironic, how you go to Second Ward and they go to West Charlotte.

CC: Yeah, they all go to West Charlotte

RJ: Well, is there anything that you’d like to add to this interview, to sort of – –

CC: No – –

RJ: Anything you want to leave behind for the people to remember about Brooklyn?

CC: Yeah, they had a, the first black library on Brevard and Second Street.

RJ: What was the name of that library? Remember?

CC: No…The first YMCA was on Second Street – black YMCA, a little building upstairs a placeupstairs.

RJ: Did they move that up into this area?

CC: The YMCA?

RJ: Yes.

CC: Yeah, the YMCA moved from Second Street, to Caldwell Street, and Caldwell Street they movedto Beatties Ford Road. They started out, it was upstairs off Second Street, then they moved downto Caldwell they built a structure on Caldwell, and moved there then to Beatties Ford Road. Which[mumbles].

RJ: Do you think most of the churches stayed together after the urban renewal project, or were any ofthem broken up?

CC: The churches they, some split because, like St. Paul, they didn’t want to move. When they foundout they had then, some members wanted to go one way, and some of them wanted a new church,and that’s where [mumbles] stuff like that, but we stayed. But, you know, we had churches allover the city anyway so we just moved one from Brooklyn, to this side here which we had one onthe other side of town.

RJ: Was there any conflict, or were they all able to get along and find their own spot?

CC: Yeah all of them did find a spot. I think they might have been helped by Third Ward – to helpthem find a spot. To help them relocate.

RJ: When did you family have to move out? Do you remember?

CC: Well my mother, they moved to Fairview Homes before it got down there. So they moved outlike, uh five or ten years before they first started.

RJ: Before ’68…So this is late ‘50’s?

CC: Yeah, yeah. I should have gone to West Charlotte, because [unknown speech] Second Ward.

RJ: Was it your choice?

CC: My choice, my choice I was Second Ward – I wasn’t part of West Charlotte. But rivals, all myneighbors – –

RJ: You’d be a traitor! [laughs]

CC: Yeah! We’d play ball together and I’d come out my door and I’d walk to the bus, catch the bus toSecond Street going to West Charlotte. But I had been playing with them all these years and Iwanted to continue to play with them. So I stayed there.

RJ: I see.

CC: [mumbling] The first black employment office was a little place on McDowell Street, down belowthe House of Prayer. Very few people remember that. [mumbling] I remember they had a big guy,like a larger older brother talking about 52 and two twenties. I never knew what he was talkingabout, but I do know all the GIs were out. It never did dawn on me till now [laughing]! You had52 weeks to get twenty dollars! I never realized it till now! 50 and two twenties, fifty and twotwenties [RJ laughs] and that’s what it was, guys come back from service they had fifty two weeksto come up with forty dollars. That’s where you had to go, to that unemployment office downthere.

RJ: And that was on McDowell?

CC: McDowell Street. On a block down McDowell Across from the [unknown name]

RJ: Do you know of anyone who was associated with that? Is that a government office?

CC: The employment office? Yeah I believe it was. It probably was, it was definitely a governmentoffice.

RJ: Now was that demolished before the urban renewal project?

CC: Yeah, they had moved out.

RJ: OK.

CC: Yeah they had moved out.

RJ: Was there any doctors or Hospitals in the Brooklyn area?

CC: The one hospital, Good Samaritan.

RJ: Good Samaritan. Any dentists?

CC: It’s in what you would call Third Ward. Wasn’t in Brooklyn, it was in Third Ward but it was onMcDowell Street. And we have two black theatres.

RJ: Theatre, as in performance acting?

CC: Movie theatres.

RJ: Movie theaters.

CC: One on Second Street, the Lincoln theatre [unknown name] McDowell Street. There were theatreson this side of town – on this side of town, [Granthead?] on Beatties ford Road over by Johnson C.Smith.

RJ: How much did it cost to see a movie?

CC: Just a dime.

RJ: A dime?

CC: Nine cents, seven cents. Popcorn was a nickel. Go get a three cent bar of candy; all kinds of stufflike that.

RJ: So movies and sports were, sort of, the recreation?

CC: That’s all. Movies and sports….

RJ: Well I want to thank you for your time.

CC: OK.

RJ: I appreciate it.

CC: OK.END OF INTERVIEWAPPROX 34 MINS