Calvin Brown

Tape Log: Oral History Interview with Calvin Brown

Interviewed by Tosha Mclean Pearson

April 24, 2007

Time	Description of Interview Contents
	Part I
0:00	Introduction
	Part II
0:35	Mr. Brown discusses his participation as a legal representative for Churches in the Brooklyn community during urban renewal, and the lack of organized protest.
4:09	For black leadership, the fight for integration overshadowed the issue of urban renewal in the city of Charlotte.
5:25	The NAACP’s fight to integrate the school system and mentions notable black leaders: Dr. Hawkins, Bishop Lee, Thomas Wyche, Charles Bell, Walter Nivens, Kelly Alexander and Fred Alexander.
6:20	Discusses Thomas Wyche as a Civil Rights lawyer and a prominent figure of the NAACP in Charlotte.
7:28	Discusses Fred and Kelly Alexander as leaders.
	Part III
0:54	Discusses black leadership’s goal for the African American community in Charlotte.
2:27	Explains what it was like as an African American working in the Charlotte court system in the 1960’s.
4:01	When Mr. Brown came to Charlotte in 1961 there were only four practicing lawyers [Walter Nivens, Thomas Wyche, R.P. Boulden and Charles Bell]. Mr. Brown discusses African American lawyers and their role as “general practitioners” in the black community.
5:43	Why Mr. Brown located to Charlotte after graduating from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
6:28	How the Charlotte black community paid for the services of African American lawyers.
7:49	How Mr. Brown felt about the urban renewal process.
9:03	Discussion about black police officers in the city of Charlotte.
10:20	Mr. Brown mentions the city of Charlotte hiring black jailors.
11:08	Mr. Brown discusses the relationship between black lawyers and policemen.
12:43	How five African American lawyers pled their cases in the court system during the last remnants of the Jim Crow era.
13:51	Mr. Brown explains that there was not much assistance from outside prominent lawyers when trying civil rights cases.
	Part IV
0:23	Mr. Brown discusses the negotiation process for compensation during urban renewal.
2:35	Mr. Brown’s perception about Brooklyn as a community.
3:25	Lessons we can all learn from the impact of urban renewal.
4:40	Mr. Brown’s thoughts on the healing process.
5:31	Closing and thank you

Calvin Brown

Calvin Brown

Interviewed at the office of Mr. Brown at the AME Zion Publishing House in Charlotte, North Carolina

April 24, 2007

Interviewer: Pearson, Tosha McLean
Transcription completed: 12 June, 2007
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Editor: Karen Flint
Title: Interview with Calvin Brown

Keywords [subject]: Urban renewal, segregation, Brooklyn, black professionals, NAACP

Description [abstract]: Upon graduating from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Mr. Calvin L. Brown moved to the city of Charlotte in 1961 to pursue his desire to practice law. At this time, only four lawyers professionally practiced law in Charlotte and Mr. Brown added to that number increasing the count to five. He entered Charlotte during a time of great change as issues of segregation and integration were constantly being challenged and urban renewal promised to tear out the heart of a once thriving black community and ethnic enclave known as Brooklyn. During the urban renewal process, Mr. Brown aided the residents of the Brooklyn community by acting as a liaison between black property owners and the city to negotiate fair and just compensation. Mr. Brown continues to practice law today at the African Methodist Episcopal Zion (A.M.E. Zion) Publishing House that now resides on Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, once known as Second Street and the heart of the Brooklyn community.

Contributor: Calvin Brown

Interview Date: April 24, 2007

Format: Mp3 (approximately 30 minutes)

Identifier: [file number]

Coverage: Charlotte, North Carolina, 1961-1965

Interviewer: Tosha McLean Pearson

Recorder (if different than interviewer): Tosha McLean Pearson

Transcriber: Jennifer Payne

Participant description:

Age:

Birth date:

Birth location:

Residence: Charlotte, North Carolina

Education: UNC-Chapel Hill, JD.

Occupation(s): Attorney

Setting Description: Office of Calvin Brown at the AME Zion Publishing House in Charlotte, NC

TP: Tosha McLean Pearson

CB: Calvin Brown

TP: My name is Tosha McLean Pearson, and today is April 24, 2007. This interview is being conducted in conjunction with the history department of the University of North Carolina as a part of the Voices of the New South Series. This particular interview is taking place at the office of Mr. Calvin L. Brown at the AME Zion Publishing House, as a part of the focus on the former Brooklyn neighborhood of Charlotte. I have with me today Mr. Calvin L. Brown. [End of Track 1]

TP: [Beginning of Track 2] Hello, Mr. Brown.

CB: Hello.

TP: How you doing?

CB: Fine.

TP: OK. I guess the reason why I have you today is to talk about and discuss urban renewal. I understand that you came here to be a lawyer in the 19- I believe it was 1961. So, can you please explain your perception of, of urban renewal when you came here and when you got involved with the lawyers and certain cases?

CB: Well, my actual participation in the urban renewal process consisted of being a legal representative for landowners who were involved in the Brooklyn area who owned property in the Brooklyn area. Most of those landowners that I represented, or landowners that I represented were the black churches that are located within the confines of the Brooklyn renewal area. I imagine I represented probably, maybe ten or twelve, fifteen black churches back then, and negotiating the fair market value of their property and trying to get them the best market price for that property. Since they were all going to be forced to move. My participation, I consider it, was a success. We were able to have court hearings and everything, with appraisals and commissioners and where, where all the parties were satisfied. Urban renewal was in the process when I got here. It was a, a process where most of the land, land, landowners at the time were absentee landlords. Absentee landlords, and, of course, they and the, the owners were, even though they were absentee landlords, insisted on trying to get the best market value they could for their property. So, it was an ongoing thing involving people who lived in the community, as I recall, the, the process would include relocation for tenants. The amount of money paid back then I can’t imagine, I can’t remember what, but there was some portion for the relocation of the actual tenant, who did not own the property. There was no particular protest organized against urban renewal. It was mostly the people who would be complaining would be tenants, and therefore, not landowners, and not have much voice in the process. OK?

TP: Great answer. [TP and CB laugh] So, you said that there was basically no protest at all. So what was…

CB: No organized…

TP: There was no organized protest. But was there any type of protest by individuals, by, by…

CB: Not that I recall- I don’t recall any. But of course, people who are being displaced and relocated are going to complain, but not in any kind of organized fashion.

TP: OK, so around 1961 to 1965, what exactly was the NAACP doing? I understand that they were involved in some civil rights cases, but what exactly, as far as urban renewal was concerned? Basically, are you saying that segregation outweighed- the focus on segregation outweighed the process of urban renewal that was going on in the city?

CB: I certainly would say that, because NAACP was, was immersed in the fight against discrimination, voter rights, and all of those issues were at, at the forefront back then. Urban renewal was a, a relocation process that was removing a, removing uncoded housing from areas in, near the downtown area. And some people might have, could see that as a, as a, a racist kind of thing, you know. Could have been. The big issues of race back then was, was segregation, school segregation, and all the tenets that came along with, with state-enforced segregation. Also, you got to remember back then, if you don’t know, back then there was very little job opportunities for blacks. And the NAACP got involved in integrating teacher, school teachers, even before the local schools integrated. Teachers were integrated first, on a small scale, but that was a part of NAACP’s efforts. And your black leaders back at that time, Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Bishop Leak, and Tom Wyche, and Charles Bell, and Walter Millings, and oh, I can’t think of- Kelly Alexander and Fred Alexander, a whole bunch of them just came. I don’t want to overlook anybody, but all of those people were out there working hard to remove, as best you could, the segregated society that we were living in.

TP: Well, can you tell me a little bit about Thomas Wyche?

CB: I, when I came here, I was in the office with Tom Wyche for about three years, down on Alexander Street. I, and we went, we moved from there to Third and Brevard. Tom was the local lawyer for the NAACP. Then I think he became a state representative for the NAACP [phone rings]. All, not all, but most cases that came up that involved discrimination came, at some point, across his desk. That kept him quite busy. Back then, of course, we started to associate other [phone rings] lawyers, because the task was getting too big for one lawyer. So, his role was very vital back then.

TP: OK, so what about Fred and Kelly Alexander? How, how was that leadership pattern? How were they as leaders?

CB: Of course, Kelly was the, the president of the state NAACP… [Talking in background] [End of Track 2]

CB: [Beginning of Track 3] Kelly Alexander was a state president of the NAACP for years, beginning, back then. He was real active in discrimination and segregation, and it was across the state, and across the region. He was very, very strong advocate of desegregation. Fred was our first black city councilman. Fred was a strong community, community supporter. Strong, both of them were strong leaders, very influential. Both in person and a great deal, back when I was younger. They were, they were good community leaders.

TP: OK, so, what was your goal for the black community, at that point in time? What, where were you trying to take them to?

CB: That’s a little bit of a confusing question. You know, I was here trying to make a living, and, [CB laughs] of course, I was affected by segregation, and the segregationist laws, and therefore the goal would be to improve the community, to, to at the same time, make a living. And we had to work harder, had to do things differently because of the kind of pressure we worked under. In the courtroom, there’s others who have worked in other areas, so our goal, I guess, if you say we had a goal, was to improve our living, our personal living conditions, by which would also affect the community where we lived.

TP: Was there any case in particular that really got your attention or made you think? Any case involving segregation, civil rights, that made you, you know, kind of recheck, you know the things that you thought or was there anything?

CB: I can’t think of anything right off, any particular case right offhand. I can remember incidents at the courthouse, back in the ‘60s, the courtrooms were separate. Blacks sat on one side, and in the back, whites sat on the other side and up front. Practically all of your, your cases dealing with police, criminal situations, were the policeman was white and the defendant was black. And, obviously jurors and everybody else, not everybody else, jurors and other people of, well, not of color, had a different view point about a defendant who was sitting there, black, being charged with something and being testified against by a white police officer. Naturally, that was a burden that black lawyers had to deal with from the beginning. Many times, you walk into an area, I’ve gone into areas outside of Charlotte back then, and everybody would be looking, and even black people would be looking because they hadn’t seen a black lawyer before. So, it was times that we had to do the best we could with what we had. So, and that probably would be what the goal was, to get the best out of whatever your condition was. And then, knowing that if you did, things would be, get better. And they have gotten better.

TP: OK. So you said when you came here in ’61, there were only four black lawyers, or was that inclusive of you?

CB: No.

TP: You made, you made, OK, so you made five. Tell me about, you know, your feelings about coming in here being one of five black lawyers and going into the courtroom and having to plead, you know, your case for civil rights, or- now, initially were you doing civil rights court cases?

CB: We did, we were general practitioners, that’s how- black lawyers had to be able to do some of everything, so we did. The bulk of it was criminal back then, but we did some personal injury, which means you plead the case before a jury, asking them to give you money for injury. And you still had the segregationist atmosphere, so, but we did practically, a full course of the practice of law. I came here from the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, we were only- in law school at that time was five of us, I think. 1958 I went over there, and finished in 1961. Before that I went to North Carolina Central University, all black, from, before that was an all-black high school, so when I got here, and only five black lawyers, it was routine for me. Because that’s all I’d been used to anyways.

TP: So what made you come to Charlotte, North Carolina, after graduating from Chapel Hill?

CB: Well, a number of reasons, the main one being the size of the city at that time, and so few lawyers. So few black lawyers. Raleigh had a large number of black lawyers, Durham had a larger number of black lawyers. Greensboro had a fair number of black lawyers. There were only four here. Plus, my wife’s family lived, relocated here, and all of that put together, I’m here.

TP: Very good. So, tell me about how you all got paid. How did the black lawyers get paid? Did you do, often, pro bono cases, or- I know you had to live and survive, but how, how were, you know, your clientele able to pay for your services?

CB: Well, we all had to be paid on an installment basis. That’s, we couldn’t just demand a large fee before we went to court. Many times, we just insisted on being paid before the case actually started to get to a finality. But, we just paid the best we could based on what we could offer and what the person could handle. Back then, you didn’t have court-appointed lawyers, except for capital cases, which means that the state didn’t pay anything. And you just worked with what you had. Did the best you could, for what you were paid for.

TP: OK. I want to go back to urban renewal. What, how do you, how do you feel, what is your perception on how the city handled it? I understand that you feel that, that Brooklyn was run, run down, and obviously it needed a serious upgrade, the people needed a serious upgrade. But how do you, how do you, do you think the city handled it correctly?

CB: Well, I think so under the circumstances at that time. I’m quite, I don’t- like I said earlier, I don’t know of, I can’t recall any kind of protest other than people who were being inconvenienced complaining, but that was not necessarily a protest. There was no organized protest. The people I represented tried to get the best dollar for what they had to sell, and that’s the same in any situation. It was obviously a move to clean out certain pockets in the city, especially downtown, but that’s, if the housing became better, I, my perception is that it was their own property.

TP: Now you said that when you came to Charlotte that there were only fourteen police officers, black police officers.

CB: I think I got that number. I’m not, I could be off there.

TP: OK. So, as far as- were , were they police officers that were working for the city, or was it the Brooklyn community, or tell, tell me as much as you know about that.

CB: Back then, there were two sets of, two departments. You had the city police department, Charlotte police department, really, and the Mecklenburg County police. Back in the early ‘60s the Mecklenburg County police patrolled in all of the areas outside of the city limits of Charlotte. That police department was made up of all white policemen back then. The Charlotte city police, had I believe, fourteen, fifteen black police officers who worked for the city of Charlotte. They patrolled the black areas of Charlotte. That would be Brooklyn, Beattie’s Ford Road, Cherry, Grier Town, that was the bulk of where they, they did their police work. But that’s the way, that’s what, that’s the circumstances back then. A number of other smaller places didn’t have any black police officers in law enforcement at all. The sheriff’s department either didn’t have any. And then they started to hire black jailers to handle the black jails, ‘cause the jails were separated. The situation was the same just about anywhere. The employment and everything else. Those were all the things that song, “We Shall Overcome,” those are a bunch of the things they overcame. We overcame.

TP: (unclear) As far as the, the police, the black police officers, did the black police officers and the lawyers have a special relationship? Were there things that, you know, you all got together on in any manner?

CB: I don’t, not necessarily. Of course, there were black police officers and black lawyers, and like anybody else, we had a tendency to socialize, and associate with each other. Simply because the black police officers probably couldn’t associate, socialize with the white officers, and probably didn’t. Same is true of black lawyers and white lawyers, we didn’t, in fact, I believe, you couldn’t, a black lawyer couldn’t be a part of the North Carolina Bar Association back then. We couldn’t be, be members. So, naturally, we had a sort of affinity for each other, and we tried to help each other when we could.

TP: So, I want to get your feeling on being, again, on being a, a black lawyer. Just, you know, the five of you, you know, fighting, you know, trying to make right whatever is wrong. How was it going into the courtroom and pleading someone else’s case? How did you feel, I mean, knowing that you were one in a few in a city and you were basically representing and, you know, representing the African-American race? Just the five of you?

CB: Well, it wasn’t a, joyous occasion, it was- we, we were all familiar with and all knew of the pressures that we faced [phone rings] We knew of the attitudes and the thoughts people, of our advocates, we knew how judges approached things, we knew how jurors would approach questions when it came to black and white, because it was going to be a segregation issue that was going to be there. But there again, the same kind of perseverance, we took into life back then. We lived in a segregated society and tried to make the best of it that we could. And that’s, pressure was something that we were accustomed to, that we were used- that we knew about and expected.

TP: Did you guys ever have to call in the big guns, such as you know, your Thurgood Marshalls and people of that caliber?

CB: Not for any kind of local situation that I can recall. We would have, if it became necessary sometimes, more popular lawyers might come in on cases, but many times, the cases would go to them first, and they would ask the local people to come in an assist. But I don’t recall any particular case that- in fact, I’m certain that Thurgood Marshall never came, not to try a case. So I don’t recall anything like that because this kind of problem was a problem faced by everybody who were involved. So we all knew the kind of pressure that we would face, trying to be prepared for it. Many years later, Judge Chambers came, not years later, three or four years after I did, things were getting better and better organized from a legal standpoint. So, it’s a, there’s no particular incident. Chambers became a bigger lawyer than Thurgood Marshall. But he wasn’t that big back then. But we all worked together.

TP: What was the year that you all became powerful? What year was it when you had complete, total organization, and you were able to get things done as a group, very efficiently?

CB: I don’t think we’ve ever gotten to that point, even now. ‘Cause, ‘cause there’s still a whole lot of work out there to be done, we got a good group of young lawyers across the state, now across the nation, who are working to see that things are progressing. But we got a lot of work to do because the mindset of some people never has changed. Their outward expressions might have changed, but the theory of being inferior and having people who are inferior to you is still in existence. They still think that. Oh, we got a lot of work to do. [End of Track 3]

TP: [Beginning of Track 4] Mr. Brown, I know you were talking about how you had to be a part of the negotiation for the urban renewal as far as the compensation was concerned for the houses that, you know, the population was moving out of. Can you explain that process, please?

CB: The bulk of the cases that I remember that I was involved in would be dealing with the churches located within the urban renewal area. ‘Cause they were the actual owners. I didn’t represent anybody who was a tenant, because they had no standing anyway, you know?

TP: The actual owners of the houses, were they black, or white?

CB: The bulk of them were white absentee landlords. And they got their own lawyers and were satisfied with whatever the city made an offer to. Our position was that we would try to get just compensation on the fair market value for the property that the city was taking. Many times we’d get our own appraisers and compare our appraisers with those that the city appraisers made. I remember many times, we’d negotiate or go to a hearing and have a commission decide how much. As I recall, sometimes, we even went to, on a jury trial. I can’t remember right off hand now, it’s been a long time ago [phone rings] But we tried to get the best compensation for the property (unclear) on an equal basis or whatever anybody else was getting.

TP: At any time did you ever feel that those verdicts from the hearing were unfair?

CB: No, naturally we felt that if we didn’t get what we wanted, we would be sometimes disappointed, sometimes we would be asking for more than we figured we would get. That was a negotiating kind of thing, anyway, that we do automatically all the time. You might ask for more than you expect to get, sometimes you got more than you expected. Sometimes you got less.

TP: OK. Well, is there anything you’d like to add about Brooklyn and the urban renewal, and I understand that you felt that it was- that the- well, first, I want to get your perception. What was your perception looking at Brooklyn? What was, what did you think about Brooklyn as a community?

CB: As I said, Brooklyn was a, a, an area made up of, well, a mixed number of people, but the bulk of them were tenants. And they were living in substandard houses and everything else. Some of the areas, blocks or streets, might have had black-owned good housing, but they were surrounded by other kinds of slum housing, so it was a process of cleaning up the whole area, but they relocated people, which was the thing that brought out the complaints about it. But those were complaints by people who were tenants rather than landlords.

TP: What are the lessons that we can learn from this urban renewal process? Can you think of any?

CB: I can’t really can’t. No, it’s been such a long time ago, but whatever process that involves the relocation of human beings, it’s got to be treated, people who are affected got to be treated like human beings. And we can always learn from the past to improve the future.

TP: Thank you, very well said. One last question, though. I understand that, you know, James Ross, I don’t know if you ever heard of James Ross, he, he feels that’s the Brooklyn- there’s a lot of healing that needs to go on within the Brooklyn community. The displacement itself bore such a psychological burden to the population in Brooklyn, and I was wondering what were your thoughts, if you have any, on compensation or, or a factor of healing that the Brooklyn community can actually try to attain in order to help smooth their conscience about he city?

CB: You got to remember now, you’re talking about forty years ago. And the people who lived here and were affected then are long gone to other places, and some are not even living now. So I don’t know of any healing process that could be taking place now that would, would have any effect on what took place forty years ago. The Brooklyn community does not exist any more. Not as a Brooklyn community. Now it’s high-rises and hotels and- it’s not a, a community. Forty years ago it was a black community. That doesn’t exist now. Wiped out a lot of years ago.

TP: OK. Mr. Brown, I want to thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you sharing your experiences with me. Thank you very much.

End of Interview. Approximately 30 minutes.

Calvin Brown

Calvin Brown

Interviewed at the office of Mr. Brown at the AME Zion Publishing House in Charlotte, North Carolina

April 24, 2007

Interviewer: Pearson, Tosha McLean

Transcription completed: 12 June, 2007

Transcriber: Jennifer Payne

Editor: Karen Flint

Title: Interview with Calvin Brown

Keywords [subject]: Urban renewal, segregation, Brooklyn, black professionals, NAACP

Description [abstract]: Upon graduating from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Mr. Calvin L. Brown moved to the city of Charlotte in 1961 to pursue his desire to practice law. At this time, only four lawyers professionally practiced law in Charlotte and Mr. Brown added to that number increasing the count to five. He entered Charlotte during a time of great change as issues of segregation and integration were constantly being challenged and urban renewal promised to tear out the heart of a once thriving black community and ethnic enclave known as Brooklyn. During the urban renewal process, Mr. Brown aided the residents of the Brooklyn community by acting as a liaison between black property owners and the city to negotiate fair and just compensation. Mr. Brown continues to practice law today at the African Methodist Episcopal Zion (A.M.E. Zion) Publishing House that now resides on Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, once known as Second Street and the heart of the Brooklyn community.

Contributor: Calvin Brown

Interview Date: April 24, 2007

Format: Mp3 (approximately 30 minutes)

Identifier: [file number]

Coverage: Charlotte, North Carolina, 1961-1965

Interviewer: Tosha McLean Pearson

Recorder (if different than interviewer): Tosha McLean Pearson

Transcriber: Jennifer Payne

Participant description:

Age:

Birth date:

Birth location:

Residence: Charlotte, North Carolina

Education: UNC-Chapel Hill, JD.

Occupation(s): Attorney

Setting Description: Office of Calvin Brown at the AME Zion Publishing House in Charlotte, NC

TP: Tosha McLean Pearson

CB: Calvin Brown

TP: My name is Tosha McLean Pearson, and today is April 24, 2007. This interview is being conducted in conjunction with the history department of the University of North Carolina as a part of the Voices of the New South Series. This particular interview is taking place at the office of Mr. Calvin L. Brown at the AME Zion Publishing House, as a part of the focus on the former Brooklyn neighborhood of Charlotte. I have with me today Mr. Calvin L. Brown. [End of Track 1]

TP: [Beginning of Track 2] Hello, Mr. Brown.

CB: Hello.

TP: How you doing?

CB: Fine.

TP: OK. I guess the reason why I have you today is to talk about and discuss urban renewal. I understand that you came here to be a lawyer in the 19- I believe it was 1961. So, can you please explain your perception of, of urban renewal when you came here and when you got involved with the lawyers and certain cases?

CB: Well, my actual participation in the urban renewal process consisted of being a legal representative for landowners who were involved in the Brooklyn area who owned property in the Brooklyn area. Most of those landowners that I represented, or landowners that I represented were the black churches that are located within the confines of the Brooklyn renewal area. I imagine I represented probably, maybe ten or twelve, fifteen black churches back then, and negotiating the fair market value of their property and trying to get them the best market price for that property. Since they were all going to be forced to move. My participation, I consider it, was a success. We were able to have court hearings and everything, with appraisals and commissioners and where, where all the parties were satisfied. Urban renewal was in the process when I got here. It was a, a process where most of the land, land, landowners at the time were absentee landlords. Absentee landlords, and, of course, they and the, the owners were, even though they were absentee landlords, insisted on trying to get the best market value they could for their property. So, it was an ongoing thing involving people who lived in the community, as I recall, the, the process would include relocation for tenants. The amount of money paid back then I can’t imagine, I can’t remember what, but there was some portion for the relocation of the actual tenant, who did not own the property. There was no particular protest organized against urban renewal. It was mostly the people who would be complaining would be tenants, and therefore, not landowners, and not have much voice in the process. OK?

TP: Great answer. [TP and CB laugh] So, you said that there was basically no protest at all. So what was…

CB: No organized…

TP: There was no organized protest. But was there any type of protest by individuals, by, by…

CB: Not that I recall- I don’t recall any. But of course, people who are being displaced and relocated are going to complain, but not in any kind of organized fashion.

TP: OK, so around 1961 to 1965, what exactly was the NAACP doing? I understand that they were involved in some civil rights cases, but what exactly, as far as urban renewal was concerned? Basically, are you saying that segregation outweighed- the focus on segregation outweighed the process of urban renewal that was going on in the city?

CB: I certainly would say that, because NAACP was, was immersed in the fight against discrimination, voter rights, and all of those issues were at, at the forefront back then. Urban renewal was a, a relocation process that was removing a, removing uncoded housing from areas in, near the downtown area. And some people might have, could see that as a, as a, a racist kind of thing, you know. Could have been. The big issues of race back then was, was segregation, school segregation, and all the tenets that came along with, with state-enforced segregation. Also, you got to remember back then, if you don’t know, back then there was very little job opportunities for blacks. And the NAACP got involved in integrating teacher, school teachers, even before the local schools integrated. Teachers were integrated first, on a small scale, but that was a part of NAACP’s efforts. And your black leaders back at that time, Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Bishop Leak, and Tom Wyche, and Charles Bell, and Walter Millings, and oh, I can’t think of- Kelly Alexander and Fred Alexander, a whole bunch of them just came. I don’t want to overlook anybody, but all of those people were out there working hard to remove, as best you could, the segregated society that we were living in.

TP: Well, can you tell me a little bit about Thomas Wyche?

CB: I, when I came here, I was in the office with Tom Wyche for about three years, down on Alexander Street. I, and we went, we moved from there to Third and Brevard. Tom was the local lawyer for the NAACP. Then I think he became a state representative for the NAACP [phone rings]. All, not all, but most cases that came up that involved discrimination came, at some point, across his desk. That kept him quite busy. Back then, of course, we started to associate other [phone rings] lawyers, because the task was getting too big for one lawyer. So, his role was very vital back then.

TP: OK, so what about Fred and Kelly Alexander? How, how was that leadership pattern? How were they as leaders?

CB: Of course, Kelly was the, the president of the state NAACP… [Talking in background] [End of Track 2]

CB: [Beginning of Track 3] Kelly Alexander was a state president of the NAACP for years, beginning, back then. He was real active in discrimination and segregation, and it was across the state, and across the region. He was very, very strong advocate of desegregation. Fred was our first black city councilman. Fred was a strong community, community supporter. Strong, both of them were strong leaders, very influential. Both in person and a great deal, back when I was younger. They were, they were good community leaders.

TP: OK, so, what was your goal for the black community, at that point in time? What, where were you trying to take them to?

CB: That’s a little bit of a confusing question. You know, I was here trying to make a living, and, [CB laughs] of course, I was affected by segregation, and the segregationist laws, and therefore the goal would be to improve the community, to, to at the same time, make a living. And we had to work harder, had to do things differently because of the kind of pressure we worked under. In the courtroom, there’s others who have worked in other areas, so our goal, I guess, if you say we had a goal, was to improve our living, our personal living conditions, by which would also affect the community where we lived.

TP: Was there any case in particular that really got your attention or made you think? Any case involving segregation, civil rights, that made you, you know, kind of recheck, you know the things that you thought or was there anything?

CB: I can’t think of anything right off, any particular case right offhand. I can remember incidents at the courthouse, back in the ‘60s, the courtrooms were separate. Blacks sat on one side, and in the back, whites sat on the other side and up front. Practically all of your, your cases dealing with police, criminal situations, were the policeman was white and the defendant was black. And, obviously jurors and everybody else, not everybody else, jurors and other people of, well, not of color, had a different view point about a defendant who was sitting there, black, being charged with something and being testified against by a white police officer. Naturally, that was a burden that black lawyers had to deal with from the beginning. Many times, you walk into an area, I’ve gone into areas outside of Charlotte back then, and everybody would be looking, and even black people would be looking because they hadn’t seen a black lawyer before. So, it was times that we had to do the best we could with what we had. So, and that probably would be what the goal was, to get the best out of whatever your condition was. And then, knowing that if you did, things would be, get better. And they have gotten better.

TP: OK. So you said when you came here in ’61, there were only four black lawyers, or was that inclusive of you?

CB: No.

TP: You made, you made, OK, so you made five. Tell me about, you know, your feelings about coming in here being one of five black lawyers and going into the courtroom and having to plead, you know, your case for civil rights, or- now, initially were you doing civil rights court cases?

CB: We did, we were general practitioners, that’s how- black lawyers had to be able to do some of everything, so we did. The bulk of it was criminal back then, but we did some personal injury, which means you plead the case before a jury, asking them to give you money for injury. And you still had the segregationist atmosphere, so, but we did practically, a full course of the practice of law. I came here from the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, we were only- in law school at that time was five of us, I think. 1958 I went over there, and finished in 1961. Before that I went to North Carolina Central University, all black, from, before that was an all-black high school, so when I got here, and only five black lawyers, it was routine for me. Because that’s all I’d been used to anyways.

TP: So what made you come to Charlotte, North Carolina, after graduating from Chapel Hill?

CB: Well, a number of reasons, the main one being the size of the city at that time, and so few lawyers. So few black lawyers. Raleigh had a large number of black lawyers, Durham had a larger number of black lawyers. Greensboro had a fair number of black lawyers. There were only four here. Plus, my wife’s family lived, relocated here, and all of that put together, I’m here.

TP: Very good. So, tell me about how you all got paid. How did the black lawyers get paid? Did you do, often, pro bono cases, or- I know you had to live and survive, but how, how were, you know, your clientele able to pay for your services?

CB: Well, we all had to be paid on an installment basis. That’s, we couldn’t just demand a large fee before we went to court. Many times, we just insisted on being paid before the case actually started to get to a finality. But, we just paid the best we could based on what we could offer and what the person could handle. Back then, you didn’t have court-appointed lawyers, except for capital cases, which means that the state didn’t pay anything. And you just worked with what you had. Did the best you could, for what you were paid for.

TP: OK. I want to go back to urban renewal. What, how do you, how do you feel, what is your perception on how the city handled it? I understand that you feel that, that Brooklyn was run, run down, and obviously it needed a serious upgrade, the people needed a serious upgrade. But how do you, how do you, do you think the city handled it correctly?

CB: Well, I think so under the circumstances at that time. I’m quite, I don’t- like I said earlier, I don’t know of, I can’t recall any kind of protest other than people who were being inconvenienced complaining, but that was not necessarily a protest. There was no organized protest. The people I represented tried to get the best dollar for what they had to sell, and that’s the same in any situation. It was obviously a move to clean out certain pockets in the city, especially downtown, but that’s, if the housing became better, I, my perception is that it was their own property.

TP: Now you said that when you came to Charlotte that there were only fourteen police officers, black police officers.

CB: I think I got that number. I’m not, I could be off there.

TP: OK. So, as far as- were , were they police officers that were working for the city, or was it the Brooklyn community, or tell, tell me as much as you know about that.

CB: Back then, there were two sets of, two departments. You had the city police department, Charlotte police department, really, and the Mecklenburg County police. Back in the early ‘60s the Mecklenburg County police patrolled in all of the areas outside of the city limits of Charlotte. That police department was made up of all white policemen back then. The Charlotte city police, had I believe, fourteen, fifteen black police officers who worked for the city of Charlotte. They patrolled the black areas of Charlotte. That would be Brooklyn, Beattie’s Ford Road, Cherry, Grier Town, that was the bulk of where they, they did their police work. But that’s the way, that’s what, that’s the circumstances back then. A number of other smaller places didn’t have any black police officers in law enforcement at all. The sheriff’s department either didn’t have any. And then they started to hire black jailers to handle the black jails, ‘cause the jails were separated. The situation was the same just about anywhere. The employment and everything else. Those were all the things that song, “We Shall Overcome,” those are a bunch of the things they overcame. We overcame.

TP: (unclear) As far as the, the police, the black police officers, did the black police officers and the lawyers have a special relationship? Were there things that, you know, you all got together on in any manner?

CB: I don’t, not necessarily. Of course, there were black police officers and black lawyers, and like anybody else, we had a tendency to socialize, and associate with each other. Simply because the black police officers probably couldn’t associate, socialize with the white officers, and probably didn’t. Same is true of black lawyers and white lawyers, we didn’t, in fact, I believe, you couldn’t, a black lawyer couldn’t be a part of the North Carolina Bar Association back then. We couldn’t be, be members. So, naturally, we had a sort of affinity for each other, and we tried to help each other when we could.

TP: So, I want to get your feeling on being, again, on being a, a black lawyer. Just, you know, the five of you, you know, fighting, you know, trying to make right whatever is wrong. How was it going into the courtroom and pleading someone else’s case? How did you feel, I mean, knowing that you were one in a few in a city and you were basically representing and, you know, representing the African-American race? Just the five of you?

CB: Well, it wasn’t a, joyous occasion, it was- we, we were all familiar with and all knew of the pressures that we faced [phone rings] We knew of the attitudes and the thoughts people, of our advocates, we knew how judges approached things, we knew how jurors would approach questions when it came to black and white, because it was going to be a segregation issue that was going to be there. But there again, the same kind of perseverance, we took into life back then. We lived in a segregated society and tried to make the best of it that we could. And that’s, pressure was something that we were accustomed to, that we were used- that we knew about and expected.

TP: Did you guys ever have to call in the big guns, such as you know, your Thurgood Marshalls and people of that caliber?

CB: Not for any kind of local situation that I can recall. We would have, if it became necessary sometimes, more popular lawyers might come in on cases, but many times, the cases would go to them first, and they would ask the local people to come in an assist. But I don’t recall any particular case that- in fact, I’m certain that Thurgood Marshall never came, not to try a case. So I don’t recall anything like that because this kind of problem was a problem faced by everybody who were involved. So we all knew the kind of pressure that we would face, trying to be prepared for it. Many years later, Judge Chambers came, not years later, three or four years after I did, things were getting better and better organized from a legal standpoint. So, it’s a, there’s no particular incident. Chambers became a bigger lawyer than Thurgood Marshall. But he wasn’t that big back then. But we all worked together.

TP: What was the year that you all became powerful? What year was it when you had complete, total organization, and you were able to get things done as a group, very efficiently?

CB: I don’t think we’ve ever gotten to that point, even now. ‘Cause, ‘cause there’s still a whole lot of work out there to be done, we got a good group of young lawyers across the state, now across the nation, who are working to see that things are progressing. But we got a lot of work to do because the mindset of some people never has changed. Their outward expressions might have changed, but the theory of being inferior and having people who are inferior to you is still in existence. They still think that. Oh, we got a lot of work to do. [End of Track 3]

TP: [Beginning of Track 4] Mr. Brown, I know you were talking about how you had to be a part of the negotiation for the urban renewal as far as the compensation was concerned for the houses that, you know, the population was moving out of. Can you explain that process, please?

CB: The bulk of the cases that I remember that I was involved in would be dealing with the churches located within the urban renewal area. ‘Cause they were the actual owners. I didn’t represent anybody who was a tenant, because they had no standing anyway, you know?

TP: The actual owners of the houses, were they black, or white?

CB: The bulk of them were white absentee landlords. And they got their own lawyers and were satisfied with whatever the city made an offer to. Our position was that we would try to get just compensation on the fair market value for the property that the city was taking. Many times we’d get our own appraisers and compare our appraisers with those that the city appraisers made. I remember many times, we’d negotiate or go to a hearing and have a commission decide how much. As I recall, sometimes, we even went to, on a jury trial. I can’t remember right off hand now, it’s been a long time ago [phone rings] But we tried to get the best compensation for the property (unclear) on an equal basis or whatever anybody else was getting.

TP: At any time did you ever feel that those verdicts from the hearing were unfair?

CB: No, naturally we felt that if we didn’t get what we wanted, we would be sometimes disappointed, sometimes we would be asking for more than we figured we would get. That was a negotiating kind of thing, anyway, that we do automatically all the time. You might ask for more than you expect to get, sometimes you got more than you expected. Sometimes you got less.

TP: OK. Well, is there anything you’d like to add about Brooklyn and the urban renewal, and I understand that you felt that it was- that the- well, first, I want to get your perception. What was your perception looking at Brooklyn? What was, what did you think about Brooklyn as a community?

CB: As I said, Brooklyn was a, a, an area made up of, well, a mixed number of people, but the bulk of them were tenants. And they were living in substandard houses and everything else. Some of the areas, blocks or streets, might have had black-owned good housing, but they were surrounded by other kinds of slum housing, so it was a process of cleaning up the whole area, but they relocated people, which was the thing that brought out the complaints about it. But those were complaints by people who were tenants rather than landlords.

TP: What are the lessons that we can learn from this urban renewal process? Can you think of any?

CB: I can’t really can’t. No, it’s been such a long time ago, but whatever process that involves the relocation of human beings, it’s got to be treated, people who are affected got to be treated like human beings. And we can always learn from the past to improve the future.

TP: Thank you, very well said. One last question, though. I understand that, you know, James Ross, I don’t know if you ever heard of James Ross, he, he feels that’s the Brooklyn- there’s a lot of healing that needs to go on within the Brooklyn community. The displacement itself bore such a psychological burden to the population in Brooklyn, and I was wondering what were your thoughts, if you have any, on compensation or, or a factor of healing that the Brooklyn community can actually try to attain in order to help smooth their conscience about he city?

CB: You got to remember now, you’re talking about forty years ago. And the people who lived here and were affected then are long gone to other places, and some are not even living now. So I don’t know of any healing process that could be taking place now that would, would have any effect on what took place forty years ago. The Brooklyn community does not exist any more. Not as a Brooklyn community. Now it’s high-rises and hotels and- it’s not a, a community. Forty years ago it was a black community. That doesn’t exist now. Wiped out a lot of years ago.

TP: OK. Mr. Brown, I want to thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you sharing your experiences with me. Thank you very much.

End of Interview. Approximately 30 minutes.