Betty Golden Holloway

Tape Log: Oral History Interview with Betty Golden Holloway

Interviewed on Thursday, April 26, 2007

Interviewed by Jennifer K. Payne. Dawn Funk, attendin

Betty Golden Holloway

Bettye Golden Holloway
Interviewed at the residence of Mrs. Holloway, Charlotte, NC
April 26, 2007
Interviewer: Payne, Jennifer
Transcription completed: 16 May, 2007
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Editor: Karen Flint
Title: Interview with Bettye Golden Holloway
Keywords [subject]: Brooklyn, Second Ward High School, extracurricular activities, segregation, Second Ward High School gymnasium, West Charlotte High School, Queen City Classic, Miss Queen City Classic, Lincoln Theater, Brooklyn businesses, El Chico restaurant, Brevard Street library
Description [abstract]: Ms. Bettye Golden Holloway was born in the Cherry neighborhood of Charlotte in 1933, and remained there for seven years before moving to the Brooklyn neighborhood in 1940. After a move to Maryland in the early forties, Mrs. Holloway’s family returned to Brooklyn, where she attended Second Ward High School and took part in several of the many extracurricular activities that the school offered to its students. Mrs. Holloway cites the close-knit community spirit of Brooklyn as its greatest strength as she remembers growing up in the neighborhood. This sense of community extended from the teachers and administrators at Second Ward High School to her neighbors and the families of her friends, and bound all of the residents together. This conversation with Mrs. Holloway also includes illuminating information about the Queen City Classic, the Brevard Street library and various businesses and personalities that survive in the memories of former Brooklyn residents.
Contributor: Bettye Golden Holloway
Interview Date: April 26, 2007
Format: WAV (59 minutes, 16 seconds)
Identifier: [file number]
Coverage: Brooklyn, 1948-1955
Interviewer: Jennifer Payne
Recorder (if different than interviewer): Dawn Funk
Transcriber: Jennifer Payne
Participant description:
Bettye Golden Holloway
Age: 74
Birth date: 1933
Birth location: Cherry, Charlotte, North Carolina
Residence: Charlotte, North Carolina
Education: Second Ward High School
Occupation(s): N/A

Setting Description: The residence of Bettye Golden Holloway in Charlotte, NC.
JP: Jennifer Payne
BH: Bettye Golden Holloway
JH: Johnny Holloway
DF: Dawn Funk

JP: Today is April 26, 2007. This is Jennifer Payne, and I’m here with Mrs. Bettye Golden Holloway for the Brooklyn Oral History project in conjunction with UNC-Charlotte and Special Collections, collections at Atkins Library. We are using the Edirol number one digital recorder. Good morning Mrs. Holloway, how are you?
BH: I’m just fine, how are you?
JP: Good, thank you for taking part in this project we really appreciate you…
BH: You’re more than welcome.
JP: …having us over to your house today. I’d like to start by just asking you really broadly, what are some of your favorite memories of growing up in the Brooklyn community?
BH: I would say, some of my memories are, the close-knit neighborhood family relations we had. Whereas, unlike today, you were concerned about your neighbor. The neighbors did look out for children or gave you advice that would be good for you. And, no, the children did not talk back to them, you know? It was more respect, and it was, I think sometimes the concern was out of love and caring. Because some of them would have seen you grow up and maybe give you some advice. That’s some of the memories. And some of the other memories are- the school. And the friends you collected and the friends you had. And the sports that we, we watched and enjoyed. That and just, just knowing what the neighborhood would expect of you, and what you could get from the neighborhood. The families, the children, the churches, the stores, the whole atmosphere.
JP: So you feel like the community really sort of provided support for you…
BH: Absolutely…
JP: …while you were growing up….
BH: Absolutely.
JP: …giving you guidance and that sort of thing.
BH: Absolutely. You felt safe, you felt secure. Because you knew that if your mom wasn’t there or, in some cases, if your dad wasn’t there, you felt secure just being surrounded by your neighborhood. You could go and say “this is happening at my house,” or “I don’t feel well,” or so and so and somebody would tell you something. And it’s not a matter of being nosy or, it’s just a matter of caring.
JP: Right. So, a lot of the, you know, the newspaper articles and the city council records from this period say over and over again that Brooklyn was a dangerous place, right? That it was crime ridden.
BH: All places are dangerous. It depends on how you can adjust or adapt to it. There were some areas that were dangerous, yeah. There are some areas now, in Myers Park that are dangerous. Crime doesn’t pick its places. You know, it just happens. So, no, it wasn’t all that dangerous. Of course, if you were in a place where you knew danger existed then, and you didn’t want to be part of it, you just didn’t go there. You just tried to evade that. So I don’t think it was really that dangerous I think that was probably in the minds of those who either didn’t live there or…and it couldn’t have been so dangerous. We were only about two or three blocks from the police station. [laughs]
JP: That’s right. {laughs]
BH: It could have been the jail. How dangerous could you be?
JP: That’s right. You’re right there. Yeah.
BH: That’s right. Right.
JP: So you lived on Third Street…
BH: I lived…
JP: Just a couple of blocks from Second Ward.
BH: Absolutely.
JP: Tell me about your regular day, school day for you.
BH: Well, We’d get to school. Of course, we had a schedule just like the kids have now, where you went to class and you’d stay there until, I think school was out at like, three o’clock. And then, during the day you had, of course, your regular classes, and you had a lunch hour, and if you took extracurricular activities you did that either after school or during school. Like, I was in dra, dramatics, OK? And, I, we would do our rehearsals after school, and maybe during that period where we had that class. I was also in the band for a while. I was a little, I was a majorette. I was in a lot of programs, whereas, I did the speaking parts. I was, I was, I was in drama, as I said, but that was our school day. At lunchtime we, the cafeteria was right crowded. So we sat outside when the weather, you know, was there for us, if the weather was good. Especially in the springtime, we’d be sitting out. Like now, this is wonderful. Then after that, we, we just came home. There were no school busses. There was no bussing because you went to school in your own neighborhood. And as I said, we only had two schools, that was West Charlotte and Second Ward. So if you lived in Brooklyn you went to Second Ward, if you lived in Biddleville you went to West Charlotte.
JP: Right.
BH: There were those who sometimes would ride the bus to West Charlotte, because they felt that that’s where they would rather be. You know…
JP: Why would, why would they feel that way? That they would rather be in West Charlotte?
BH: Some kids had the idea that West Charlotte was better.
JP: Just because it was newer? Than Second Ward…
BH: Somewhat, somewhat.
JP: Than Second Ward?
BH: Somewhat. It was a little newer. And then that was another side of town, another side of town. But we didn’t have that many- most people lived in Brooklyn went to Second Ward, went to Second Ward.
JP: And so, how would you, how would you describe the atmosphere at Second Ward? Was it very supportive? I know it was a very large school.
BH: It was large and overcrowded, because as I said, that was the only school in the area. I think it was supportive. I think the teachers really cared whether you learned. I think they cared, not only whether you learned their lesson, but how you acted on the outside. They wanted you to be- and people, kids respected teachers then. They had more respect for them. A teacher walked into a room, the class was quiet, you know. I think they were very supportive of not only how you did in school, but when you got out of school. They were concerned whether you went to college or what you were going to do. They were even concerned if you didn’t come to school for a while. Why didn’t you come, where have you been, have you been sick, you know, so…
JP: So they’d call home…
BH: Yeah, if those, to those who had telephones. If not, you got a letter. And sometimes, those who wanted to, to quit, would quit. Which, if they, they weren’t stagnant. Then there were some who, some fellas who would just come to play sports during that season. And they were allowed to do that. But, they, the teachers were concerned. I think they were greatly concerned.
JP: And so it sounds like, I mean, if you had the desire, you could succeed at that school. That they gave you every opportunity.
BH: Every opportunity. And I think we had pretty good teachers. You know, I really do. I think we learned the basic curriculum and I think it was taught well. And a lot of them went on to college, or those who could afford it. You know, we didn’t have the grants and all of the things that they have now. You know, you tried to get a scholarship if at all possible. So…
JP: Would you stay in the same class all day, with the same teacher? Or did you move between classes like they do now?
BH: Oh, no, we changed classes.
JP: You did…
BH: Yeah, we changed classes. We would, we changed, we would go to homeroom to be checked in, and then, then you, you took your schedule and you followed your schedule all day.
JP: So it’s a lot like it is now.
BH: Oh, yeah. Pretty much.
JP: Who were some of the teachers that you remember?
BH: Oh, well, we had a chemistry teacher Mr. Levi, we had a biology teacher Mr. Brown, Ed Brown, and we had a, the home ec teacher Mrs. Carson, we had English teachers, Mrs. Byers and Mrs. Adair. We had a Bible teacher, Dr. Mildred Davis, Baxter-Davis. And then we had a sewing teacher Mrs. Flag. Of course, our principals, Mr. Grigsby…
JP: What do you remember about him?
BH: Well, he was a, he was a real nice principal. I don’t think, I didn’t see as really being a strict man, but I think he had others to carry out his orders.
JP: I see.
BH: You understand?
JP: Right.
BH: I think he was like a homebody man, you know, he cared about you, but he, he had other folks to, to carry out whatever punishments were there.
JP: Right. So did he interact with the students a lot? Did you see him, you know, and talk to him a lot? Or was he…
BH: Sometimes, you know, sometimes. Or of course, you know, by him, by that being the only school, there was a lot of kids there. So I’m sure he had a lot to deal with.
JP: I’m sure, I’m sure.
BH: And he had a staff.
JP: Right, right. And, before we started the interview you were talking to me a little bit about the books that you used…
BH: Oh, the books. Yeah, the books being passed down. Not only books, but uniforms, band uniforms, the athletic uniforms. They were just passed down. They were just hand-me-down books.
JP: And they would get handed down from the white schools…
BH: Sure.
JP: …and then brought to Second Ward…
BH: Absolutely.
JP: …where you would have to rent them…
BH: Absolutely.
JP: …and then pay for any damages.
BH: Any damages you had to pay for.
JP: And how did they determine how much they were going to charge you?
BH: I don’t know who made that determination. I guess, in the front of the book they had, maybe they have it now, when you get the book, the condition it is. And they would write, put your name on it, and they would maybe put A, B, C, or D or whatever. That’s how they determined the book. Naturally, they wouldn’t be new, so whatever damage, I don’t know who made the determination as to what the value of it that had to be repaid because of damages.
JP: I’d like to talk a little bit about extracurricular activities because it sounds like you were involved in some pretty interesting things.
BH: I was.
JP: The drama, for one thing.
BH: Yeah.
JP: So you had a class in drama.
BH: We had a class in drama that was part of the credits that you had. We didn’t have all the classes like they have now. You just took your basic English, history, math, and English, and English, I believe. And then, you know, every year you took those things along with physical ed or choral or drama or band or whatever. Those were the extracurricular. I was just in drama and, I was just in drama. Drama, and, a while I was in the band. For one year. You know, as a little majorette, but that didn’t last long because I found other things to do.
JP: Right, right. And so, as majorette you would go to the football games…
BH: Oh, yeah, we’d go to football games and just march around. We didn’t – the only time you marched downtown was the Queen City Classic, and that was the highlight of the football season.
JP: Right.
BH: They would have young ladies from each school vying to be Miss Queen City Classic. That was not a popularity contest. That was based on the tickets you sold.
JP: Oh, I see.
BH: Yeah.
JP: So you would have to sell tickets to the football game…
BH: Yes.
JP: …and whoever sold the most.
BH: Yes.
JP: Well, that’s great. That’s a very democratic way to do it, isn’t it?
BH: Absolutely.
JP: That’s just a…
BH: But now I think you’re selected by the football team, I think. I think that’s how it is now.
JP: Well, what was the, the Queen City Classic, we know that was a football game between West Charlotte and Second Ward every year.
BH: Right.
JP: What was it like? Did they have, you know, now in high schools they have this week leading up to homecoming or big football games, and they call it Spirit Week and they have different activities. Was the Queen City Classic just a one day event? Or did they celebrate, celebrate it for longer than that?
BH: They prepared for it all week. When they, plans may have been in the making longer before. But prior to the big day, then you may have had, maybe that Friday we may have had a pep rally in school.
JP: Right.
BH: OK, we may have had -I remember the football teams being fed by the home ec department. And I took part in that. But, the big day was the parade. The parade- the schools would meet, they would have parades and they may have other people, they had the football things on the float. They had the young lady who was vying on a float, and they would ride through, actually, they rode trough the square at that time. And the square, right up, you know where the square is now?
JP: I do.
BH: That was the highlight of the parade. That’s where everybody did the show-off stuff, you know. If you got anything to show off, or whatever, that’s where you did your thing.
JP: So, what would they do? They would dance and sing…
BH: They wouldn’t do like they do now, they would just play, and the majorettes would strut, and sometimes, they would have, the band would have formation out there. You know, that was the highlight of it. And naturally, all the families came out to watch this parade because they wanted to see your school, they wanted to see your school and how well it was represented. And then they wanted to see their classmates who were there to show off their stuff.
JP: Right. The, was the parade, was that the same day as the football game?
BH: Yes.
JP: So they would do the parade first…
BH: Yeah.
JP:… and then everybody would go to the football game…
BH : And the football game would be at night in Memorial Stadium.
JP: At Memorial Stadium.
BH: Yeah, sure.
JP: And, was it always packed?
BH: It was always crowded. Because you see, neighborhoods would come. The whole generation of people who had gone before would come, that’s showing school spirit. So, the people from West Charlotte would come and boost their team and their band, and of course, halftime on the football field was where everybody wanted to see who was playing and who was doing this and that. So it was like more or less a competitive thing, you know. So, yeah, it was crowded.
JP: Between the bands, you mean, at halftime?
BH: The bands, between the bands and the football game and the football players. Yeah. So that was the night of competition.
JP: And was it, was it pretty good-natured? Between West Charlotte and Second Ward, or would you say it was a pretty serious rivalry?
BH: It could, it could get serious. It could get serious, it could get serious. Well, the whole thing sometimes would, was like a rivalry thing. Like, the fellas used to say that Brooklyn boys couldn’t go to West Charlotte to visit girls. And the guys from West Charlotte couldn’t come to Brooklyn to visit girls. Now, I don’t know whether that’s true or not.
JP: Right, right.
BH: It has been rumored that way.
JP: Right. I had, I interviewed Mary Poe last week, and she was telling me that one of her memories of the Queen City Classic is that they would, they would get a casket from one of the funeral homes…
BH: Oh, really? I hadn’t seen that one.
JP:…and dress somebody up in the West Charlotte colors. You didn’t see that, though?
BH: Well, that was probably after my time. She’s, she’s younger than I am.
JP: OK, OK.
BH: She’s younger than I am.
JP: So, that’s great, that’s the Queen City Classic. And so, the football players, I guess, were the big stars of this….
BH: Oh, yeah, they were the big stars. And every school had their own star. The running star, the quarterback, the linebacker, or whatever. Everybody had their own star. And the highlight of the evening was when they crowned Miss Queen City.
JP: Right. And so, would Miss Queen City, would she have duties that she had to do outside of that, or, I mean, like, would she reign for an entire year and…
BH: No, no after that it’s over, it’s over, it’s over.
JP: …you know, it’s just one day, you know, you get your crown, and you’re done [laughs]…
BH: That’s it. That’s it until the next time.
JP: Yeah, but it’s pretty elaborate though, from the pictures that I’ve seen of Ms. Ely. She’s really dressed up, and she’s got the crown, and, you know, the huge bouquet of flowers…
BH: Well, I think she was the first one.
JP: Right, OK.
BH: So, naturally, when you’re doing something the first time, it’s more polished. And, of course, sometimes, as it grows and it gets better and better and better.
JP: Right.
BH: But she was the first one.
JP: Do you know if these girls had strategies for selling those tickets?
BH: No, I don’t know. No, I don’t know. I don’t know about that.
JP: OK.
BH: I don’t know how that goes. You, I would think that the parents or the families and stuff would help, would help with that.
JP: Right.
BH: If you decided to, but I don’t think they had any criteria as to who could really run. If you sold tickets, you just sold tickets. It wasn’t a beauty contest, OK? So, if you sold tickets, you just sold tickets.
JP: So you just had to get people at the game?
BH: Absolutely. That’s marketing. That’s what they call it now.
JP: That’s right. So, you were a majorette and you were in drama as well.
BH: Oh, yeah. I was in drama.
JP: Did you perform plays, did you…
BH: Oh, yeah.
JP: ..put on plays for the neighborhood?
BH: No, not for the neighborhood, just in school.
JP: Just for the school.
BH: Just in school.
JP: Do you remember what some of the plays that you, that you put on?
BH: One was, I think, the Taggart Sisters, that was the last one. That may have been my senior play, I’m not sure. You know, I’m not sure right now.
JP: You did this all the way through high school.
BH: No, no, I only got in it in eleventh, eleventh and twelfth grade. Other times I didn’t do a lot of extracurricular stuff.
JP: You just focused on the school work.
BH: Yeah, I did the biology and the chemistry.
JP: Well, that’s hard, that will keep you from…[laughs]
BH: Well, biology I had to, chemistry I chose. But then, after I chose chemistry I realized I made an error.
JP: Right.
BH: And the same man taught physics. And I felt that I had spent enough time with him. Spent enough time with…[laughs]…I didn’t need any more, any more of him.
JP: I understand, I made the same mistake with chemistry. I just knew I was in the wrong place.
BH: Yeah, I knew that. I didn’t flunk out. You know, I didn’t flunk it, but I could have found a thousand better places I would rather have been. Yeah.
JP: Were there, were there sports teams for the girls at Second Ward?
BH: We had a basketball team.
JP: OK. And they would go to other schools and play or was it just an intramural, in Second Ward?

BH: No, they played. They went on tournaments.
JP: OK.
BH: They played against West Charlotte and there was another school in the county called Plato Price and there was one called Clear Creek. I think Clear Creek was out this way, I believe. But they played, they had a basketball team. Let me see if I can find, if I can put my hands on my book, but I know, I, yes I can, hold on a minute. Let me find my yearbook.
JP: Sure, sure. Can you pause for a second?
[Pause while Mrs. Holloway goes to find her Second Ward yearbook. Recording continues. Faint talking between Jennifer Payne, Dawn Funk, and Mr. Johnny Holloway]
JP: Mr. Holloway, your wife told us that you were a jazz musician.
JH: Yeah.
JP: That’s very, very interesting. Did you, did you play in this area, or did you travel all over and play?
JH: Well, my playing has been local prior to coming to Charlotte. I was primarily a teacher and band director in the school system.
JP: Right, right. That’s very interesting. I was telling. I was telling Mrs. Holloway that jazz is something that I really like, but I would be so scared to talk to you about it [laughs] because I don’t know if I would actually be able to say enough about it [laughs].
JH: I don’t know all that much about it.
BH: Here’s the yearbook. Here’s the famous yearbook.
JP: Oh great! The Tiger, OK.
BH: Here’s the famous, let me see if I can see some sports folks.
JP: You want to, yeah, thank you. So, Mrs. Holloway has her yearbook now, it’s called The Tiger from Second Ward High School. And we’re looking for some of the sports, and they’ve got a picture in here of the football team, which is very large, actually, there’s probably about thirty guys on that team, so it’s a big team. There’s a girl’s basketball team. Cheerleaders, they’ve got five cheerleaders. A boy’s basketball team. Majorettes. Are you in this picture?
BH: No, I’m not in that one, I’d gotten out.
JP: The band council. The marching band is also very large. The dance orchestra. What was this dance orchestra? They would just play for the dances that they would have at the school?
BH: Some of them. It was just a class. They didn’t do that much playing anyway.
JP: I see.
BH: Maybe for a school party or something but I don’t think they released out.
JP: OK, OK. So there are some really great pictures in here. Oh, this is the food laboratory, beginning class, and there’s a picture of Mrs. Holloway here, Bettye Golden, it says, yeah. And so, was this the home economics class that you were in?
BH: That was the advanced home ec department.
JP: The advanced home ec, so there were…
BH: We didn’t have that many courses to take, so some kids just took something over and they named it advanced. That’s how they did it.
JP: What kind of thing would you learn in there, in the advanced class?
BH: Basic cooking and setting a table and how to serve, you know. Serve from one, left or something, pick up from your right, whatever, I may have it wrong.
JP: I’m not sure which one it is, but, yeah [laughs]. So, and the chorus and there’s bands, so it seems like there were really a lot of opportunities to develop…
BH: Absolutely.
JP: …whatever kind of talents and whatever kind of skills you had there.
BH: Absolutely. If you notice there’s a woodwork…
JP: This is the machine shop here, and masonry…
BH: Yes.
JP: …this was an interesting thing too, I think, because it’s not something they’re doing anymore in schools….
BH: I know.
JP: …giving people trades.
BH: That- now, I think you would have to take it in one of the vocational schools.
JP: Right, right. Or community colleges or something like that.
BH: Absolutely. And there’s journalism.
JP: This is very interesting. A journalism class. All those aspiring young journalists. Once you once you left school for the day, what would you do for, what would you do for fun?
BH: We would go home and do our homework. And, there was, there was a disc jockey that came on in the afternoon when we got off called Genial Gene Potts. And he was the first black disc jockey. And he would come on during that time and everybody would rush home to get him. What was so amazing about him is he had the ability to rhyme. To rhyme. Make rhymes out of everything, you know. So, and then he would have the dedications. Like I would dedicate my song to my boyfriend or maybe a bunch of girls and say “this is played for them,” or something like that. That was the highlight. I think he stayed on from three, I want to say three until four, maybe. But he was Genial, and it was on WGIV. And that was the highlight and people rushing to get home. And then they would do their homework. Some people worked, out, maybe in the hospitals, or, some fellas worked in little stores, but jobs weren’t available. We could not work downtown. So we couldn’t go and work in Kress, or Grant’s or, as a matter of fact, we couldn’t even eat downtown. So, those who didn’t just- and sometimes they had to go home and take care of your little brother and sister. Or sisters, if the family worked, it was your responsibility to take care of them.
JP: When you say you couldn’t eat downtown, do you mean that…
BH: We weren’t served.
JP: Right. At all?
BH: No.
JP: At all?
BH: No.
JP: There wasn’t even separate dining rooms?
BH: No, no.
JP: And that was at Kress’s and…
BH: And Grant’s.
JP: …and at Belk’s.
BH: Well, Belk’s didn’t have, I don’t know whether they had a, a restaurant then, but, the main eating place was Kress right on the corner. And Grant’s was another five and dime down the street, but you, they wouldn’t serve you.
JP: And so, I mean, I guess that the only thing you could really do was just eat in the Brooklyn neighborhood right?
BH: That’s all. That’s right.
JP: So what kind of restaurants were there in Brooklyn?
BH: Well, we had one around the corner called the El Chico that was a very nice restaurant, and it was owned by a Mr. Ames Ingram, and he, he had a real nice restaurant that sold down-home cooking, you would call it. Now we would call it soul food, OK? And very clean, it was very good. He maintained order. He was also the proprietor of one on Second Street, and a pool room. But that’s one of the few places that we could eat. You go maybe to the Queen City Classic, I mean, the Queen City Drug Store or Pharmacy and get maybe an ice cream sundae or milkshake, but that was one of the few restaurants that we had.
JP: So, the Queen City Pharmacy didn’t do whole meals, they just did sweets…
BH: No, they did sweets and maybe a sandwich or something.
JP: Where was El Chico’s, do you remember?
BH: It was on McDowell Street.
JP: Was it near the House of Prayer?
BH: Yes, it was.
JP: Was it associated with the House of Prayer in any way? Or was it, it was a separate…
BH: No, no, no. Just one building and then that one.
JP: OK. How big was it?
BH: What, the El Chico’s?
JP: El Chico’s.
BH: Oh, it was pretty big. They had a counter space and then they had some booths. So, I guess, I guess the capacity it would hold would be maybe thirty, thirty-five people at one time, ‘cause they had a counter space and then they had the booths.
JP: Right, right. And you said that they served soul food and…
BH: Yeah. They served, they were open, like, all day. They may have close, they may close at night. Maybe eleven.
JP: So people maybe would go there after the movies, too, or before the movies. It sounds like, the reason I’m asking is because I’ve heard a lot of people talk about El Chico’s.
BH: It was really a neighborhood thing. When people went to the movies, they didn’t go back for dinner like they do now. You just, you go to the movies, you go home, you know. Unless, you know, you had something else planned, or, but, you, you, the area where the El Chico was and the area where the movie was too far. A lot of people didn’t have automobiles. So it was really a neighborhood.
JP: Right. You had to walk a lot.
BH: Yeah. That was in Brooklyn. And then there was another one up on the corner of First and McDowell, and that was called, I can’t remember it now, but that was on First and McDowell. But they sold a lot of beer. That corner had a lot of alcohol, and when I say alcohol, I don’t mean hard stuff, I mean just beer. Alcohol was usually gotten by someone, but was an ABC store up there. That’s how that was but, El Chico may have sold it but I don’t, I didn’t ever see it like that. I saw it as people really going there to eat.
JP: Are there any other businesses that you can think of that stand out…
BH: On McDowell?
JP: Well, anywhere, in the neighborhood that…
BH: Well, we had, we had the beauty school on the corner of First and McDowell. That was Woods-Morgan beauty school. That’s where young ladies went to learn the beauty culture. Then there were, there was a lot of beauty shops along there. One in particular was the Powder Puff, and that was right diagonally across from El Chico. OK? There were…
JP: Do you remember who owned that one?
BH: Yeah. A distant relative. A Mrs. Hortence Mc Knight. And then, of course, there were neighborhood stores in there that were owned by white people. Who, they didn’t, of course, they didn’t live there. They came there to operate their store.
JP: OK.
BH: And they weren’t always fresh food, you know. Most people, if their mom, or if the mom worked in service like mine did, the lady she worked with lived in Myers Park. So, we would go to the A&P on her day off. I mean, on her, she worked a half day Thursday, and that’s where she would go with the lady she worked with.
JP: I see.
BH: So, that’s how we did that.
JP: So, she would do all of her shopping in…
BH: Most of it, most of it where she worked. There were some stores in the neighborhood as I said, but sometimes they weren’t very friendly to you. I guess they felt that, you know, either here or not, you know?
JP: Right.
BH: They wanted the little dollar or whatever because, as I said, the food wasn’t always fresh.
JP: You said, this is interesting to me, that there were some white business owners that came in…
BH: Oh, they came in.
JP: …to this predominantly African-American community.
BH: Absolutely. And that’s the way it was all over the city. White folks did not live in black communities.
JP: Right, right. Why, do you know why they would come into the- it just seems kind of odd to me, I guess, that everything was so segregated all over the city, that they would come in. Maybe it was just a good business opportunity?
BH: It was a big business opportunity because very few of us had the resources to start a store. There were some, very few. So I guess that’s why they would, they would come to the store.
JP: And would you say that these white business owners were maybe less friendly than the African-Americans who lived in the neighborhood….
BH: I think it depend, I think it depended on his sales for the day.
JP: Ah, I see.
BH: Some, you understand, maybe on the weekend he was probably a little more friendly than during the week. He was open, but, you know, somebody may come in, kids may come in and buy candy or a soda or some bread. A family may come in an buy bread or lunchmeat or whatever. But his big day, I guess would be Saturdays, when most people would have gotten paid, so therefore, he…
JP: He was in a good mood.
BH: And he wasn’t, he wasn’t that much in competition with anybody because there wasn’t that many stores around, you know? So if they came in, as a matter of fact, about five or six years ago I met a guy out near the airport when they were moving some houses out that way, I would just happened to be looking at houses they were going tear down, just to see how the airport could acquire this land. And so, we were talking to a guy, we just happened to be talking, and he was one of the men who used to come on our part of town. To have a store. ‘Cause he said he used to live over there-he had a store on Third Street, well that’s where I lived. And when he told me his name, I said, “Oh, my, my, my, what a small world it is!”
JP: What was his name?
BH: I’m not going to say because I may give the wrong name.
JP: That’s fine, that’s fine.
BH: I have a name on my tip but I can’t remember.
JP: Right. That’s fine, that’s fine. Now, where would you go to see movies?
BH: Well, we went to the Lincoln Theater. That was on Second Street. That was one of the streets on Second Street. I wrote about it in my article that in addition to the pool room and the record shop, and some, some small cafes down there, the Lincoln movie was the movie. And, it was right in the, right on Second Street up near Brevard. And that’s where we went.
JP: So, would you go- it says in this editorial that you wrote for the Charlotte Observer about Brooklyn, it says that “it was always crowded on the weekends, no one usually went during the week.” Did you have a day on the weekend that you would always go to the movie theater, or was it just a sometimes, kind of thing…
BH: Well, nobody went during the week because during the week we were in school and we had homework.
JP: Right.
BH: And no one had the money to go during the week. And those who had it, a few people may have gone, but, you know, if you’re taking a date, you know, that would be movie and refreshments or whatever. But very few people went during the week. The weekend time was the time to go. Maybe Saturday or Sunday.
JP: Was it a pretty big theater?
BH: Not really.
JP: No? Did it just have one level?
BH: That’s all, no, no, no balcony.
JP: Yeah? Just the one level. And so I’m sure it would always be packed on the weekends then.
BH: Yeah, sometimes you had to stand up. You had to stand up. And then, it’s not like now, when you go to the movie after the movie’s over, you have to leave, no. You could sit there all day and see the same movie over…
JP: Really?
BH: Yeah.
JP: You just buy one ticket?
BH: Just buy one ticket. What else you going to do?
JP: We should still do that! That’s a great idea. [laughs]
BH: I know! [laughs]
JP: That’s a great idea.
BH: If you forget something or you miss something you just have to come back in, you know.
JP: Right, right.
BH: But, no, you just left.
JP: And so, when you were living on Third Street, what was that area of Brooklyn like? Was it mostly residential?
BH: Oh, yeah, it was residential. The only, the only businesses were on the main streets, like. You know, like First Street was a main- that, Second Ward was up on First and Alexander. But a lot of those businesses were up there, a lot of stores were up there. There was a pool room across the hall where the guys used to go to hang out. We couldn’t, we didn’t have the recreation area, recreational areas we have now, like the park or you can go do this. There was a park, but there was no basketball court, and there was no football thing. So, First Street was, that was business, that was business concern, too. But they had residents up there. On our street, that was completely residential. There was some streets that were just completely residential. McDowell Street was busy. But the other, the other parts were just complete neighborhoods. There was one phase of Third Street that I left- what’s up there now? I lived at Third and Myers, and I guess further up, they called Black Bottom because the streets were not paved.
JP: Oh, I see. That was Third and Myers?
BH: No, further up, let’s say Third and Alexander.
JP: OK.
BH: That was one part. There were other parts of the city that had streets that were not paved. There was just like, some black stuff down. So, I don’t know whether the name Black Bottom came from that. Because there was no pavement, or if it was just that, that on the street. Around the corner from where we lived, the houses, you know where the educational center is? Well, they had houses down there. But there was a creek that ran under the street that the people had to have like, a bridge to get up to go to their house from the street. So- but that’s, that’s how maybe deplorable those houses were.
JP: Right. And, in, in, but that wasn’t part of the Black Bottom area.
BH: No, the Black Bottom was part of a street that just hadn’t been paved. I guess it was from like Third and Alexander up to, maybe, Davidson, I’m not sure.
JP: And what were the houses in that area like?
BH: They were like, maybe, there were hardly any two story houses. Most of those houses were maybe what we called a ranch, but we just called them one story, one story. There were a lot of duplexes.
JP: I see.
BH: OK. In some areas they had the shotgun houses. That’s where houses are on one level and they say that you could look from the front to the back door, just straight through.
JP: Just rooms piled on top of each…
BH: They were just straight, one room led to the next room, then led to the next room. So, but, most of them were like that. Very few shotguns, but there were a lot of single houses and duplexes.
JP: I remember in some of the things that I’ve read about, about Brooklyn and urban renewal, you know, a lot of these city councilmen said that one of the problems with Brooklyn was that there wasn’t a very high level of home ownership.
BH: No.
JP: And a lot of people rented, especially from white landlords, who were probably absentee landlords. Is it, is that kind of…
BH: Well, we had very few homeowners because people didn’t have the resources to buy a house. And naturally, if a landlord is renting a house, that’s his financial gain, you understand? He doesn’t want to sell, who is he going to sell it to? Most people couldn’t afford to buy it. I don’t even know the value of the houses. But, I lived in an apartment, where we lived. But most of the single houses- and we rented. No one really had the resources to, I guess, buy a house, unless you were in a professional field. Like, mom or dad was a schoolteacher, or something in another capacity, where you would have those funds for the payments. Although you paid rent, but that, that was his gain. But very few homeowners, very few. And they were probably retired teachers or teachers, or whatever made, or ministers, or whatever may have lived there.
JP: The apartment complex that you lived in on Third Street, was it a pretty large apartment complex?
BH: We had two bedrooms, and a bath, and a kitchen and living room. They were- that’s the norm.
JP: Right. And it wasn’t, of course, like it is now, with the big neighborhoods of apartments, but there were maybe….
BH: No, there was just two in the (unclear), but, one, two, one, two- it was three right there together where I lived. Three buildings and there were four apartments in each building.
JP: Now, you moved away from Brooklyn in like, 1948, right? Do I have that date right?
BH: I moved back…
JP: You moved back in 1948, I’m sorry about that. And then you stayed until 1955, did you say?
BH: I stayed until 1955.
JP: OK. Once you left in 1955, did you still have family that lived in Brooklyn?
BH: No.
JP: Were you aware when you left of the city’s plans to, for urban renewal?
BH: No, I wasn’t aware. I only saw that when I came back.
JP: OK. And what did you think when you came back?
BH: I was devastated. But I, I was devastated because I always dreamed of going back to the high school that I left and see maybe some of my old teachers and just reminisce about how it was when I went there. The doors we came in. The cafeteria, the auditorium, whatever. But I was, I was, I was really devastated. I was really sad. It seemed as though they had taken away part of my history. They took away part of my past. And I couldn’t- And even now, I can’t go and reflect on anything. They left some schools, but they destroyed that one. And that was the one that probably, I’m sure it was for political and financial gain. I know progress must go. I understand they had promised to build another one and they haven’t.
JP: Another school, you mean?
BH: Yeah. They said the Metro School was supposed to be that, but that, that’s not the way they did that either. They can say anything until they get voted in, and when they get voted in they have damnesia. Not amnesia.
JP: Right, damnesia. Two different things. [laughs]
BH: Two different things. So, that’s how that went.
JP: Well, what do you think that they should have done differently?
BH: Kept their word and built it somewhere else. Although they, if they were, and you look at it from this point: if they were going to have urban renewal and all the parents, I mean, all the families would have gone, then what was the point of the keeping the school? Who would have come? Would they have made that one of the schools that you can bus in? But you can’t be that way, either. Because bussing is not only for people that come in, it’s also for the people that’s there. You can’t just move them out and bring the- that’s exchange, that’s called exchange. But bussing in means that some kids are bussed from one neighborhood to the other, and some of those kids are bussed to their neighborhood. You can’t remove all of them, so if you tore down all the houses or have all the people to go, who would come? You know, but seemingly they could have put it somewhere else. And you know, you read now where the schools are in such bad repair that maybe they could have built one, maybe in another neighborhood. But then, the people had gone to different spots, different places. Some went to Biddleville, some went to Grier Heights, some went to Cherry, some went to other parts of the city. You know, so, I don’t know, but I think they should have kept their word.
JP: What was the feeling in the community when it did get dispersed like that? I mean, do you think that people had the idea that they would be able to keep that, not the physical neighborhood, but the social community together?
BH: No, once they had to leave, they had to leave. Every, once they said that what they were going to do, I’m sure that it had been in the papers, that, you know, this was going to come forth, that the houses would be destroyed, they had to find wherever they were going, wherever they were going. You know, so, they had no choice, no say so. It was just a matter of you know, you must move.
JP: The, I’m going to switch gears for a minute. I know that you grew up, you were actually born in the Cherry neighborhood, which was across the creek from Brooklyn. And you would have to cross the swinging bridge to come over from Cherry into Brooklyn.
BH: You really didn’t have to. That was an option. You could go all the way around up Fourth Street.
JP: I see.
BH: That was just an option.
JP: But when you did come across the bridge, if you chose to do that, am I right that you would be in the part of Brooklyn that was called Blue Heaven?
BH: Oh, yeah. It’s right on the outskirts of, between Cherry and Brooklyn was an area called Blue Heaven. That was just a small community out from- you see, Brooklyn had, like they had wards, First Ward, Second Ward, and Third Ward, that was the whole scope of it. And then they had the outer parts, like Blue Heaven. Yeah, that was just an area- there was a park down there, just as you left Cherry to get, before you got to Brooklyn, that was Blue Heaven.
JP: OK. Do you know why it was called Blue Heaven?
BH: I never knew, I never knew.
JP: I haven’t been able to find that out.
BH: I haven’t been able to find that out, either. If you find out you call me up and you let me know.
JP: I’ll let you know. I did hear a rumor from somebody that there was a laundry down there and that they would release blue dye or blue chemicals into the stream, but nobody’s been able to tell me if that’s right.
BH: Really? I’ve never known it, I’ve never known it. I’ve never known it.
JP: OK. OK. So, I’ve actually got two more questions for you, and then, ‘cause I know that we’re probably keeping you a little bit longer than you thought, but…
BH: No, that’s fine.
JP: My first question, going back to Second Ward, when Dawn interviewed Daisy Stroud, Mrs. Stroud remembered that they would lock the gates at Second Ward.
BH: Oh, yeah.
JP: Did they still do that when you were there.
BH: Uh-huh. They had them when she was there?
JP: Yeah, yeah. That was one of the first things she remembered about it.
BH: And I’ve often, I’ve often wondered, did they lock it to keep us in or to keep people out?
JP: She said the same thing, didn’t she?
BH: That’s been a very mysterious question. Why did they? Why did they? Was it to secure us from people coming in, or was it to make sure we stayed in? I really don’t know. I, I remember one time I was hungry, and I didn’t have lunch money, and I lived two blocks down the street. Well, I just decided that I was just going to go on home and make me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Naturally, being the junior that I was I couldn’t sit up and eat peanut butter and jelly.
JP: Right , exactly. [laughs]
BH: So if I went home and ate it and brushed my teeth who would have known?
JP: Nobody would know.
BH: Well, I went back in and who did I see but the principal? “Where you going?” “I’m going to class.” “Well, where you been?” “I went home.” “Why?” I said, “’Cause I was hungry.” And he listened to me and he, he felt compassionate, and he said, “The next time, you can either borrow money and go to the cafeteria, or you just let somebody in the office know.” And that’s concern.
JP: Yeah.
BH: That’s concern, you know, all…
JP: “Cause it sounds like he was looking out for you, he wasn’t just chastising you…
BH: Yeah, really he understood. I was honest and open. And I just told him, “I was hungry.” I didn’t have any money for any cafeteria food and I couldn’t stand in line, and hey, I knew we had peanut butter and jelly at home, so why not?
JP: So maybe it was a little of both, maybe they were trying to keep people in but maybe they were also looking out for your safety…
BH: Absolutely. That’s what, sometimes, that’s how I can visualize it. You know, they may have been doing us a favor. Just like you said people said Brooklyn was a bad area, it was not. But that fence was up there when I first got there. And then, you know we were the first ones with a gym, a gymnasium.
JP: Which is still there.
BH: Yes, but it’s for a different purpose now, I think. But, they used to have- that’s where they played basketball. Not only did we play there, when they had the tournaments, that’s where they would go. Johnson C. Smith used to come over there and use our gym. So it was really like, not only Second Ward’s gym, it was a community gym. You know, they used to have proms there, West Charlotte had their prom there.
JP: Oh, really?
BH: Yeah, yeah. We- they would have proms there, somebody would get in there and dress it up, we’d have proms there. As I said , they would also rent it out to Johnson C. Smith. And we’d have tournaments where kids would come from different counties to play in this tournament.
JP: Like, sports tournaments, you mean?
BH: Yeah, basketball. Basketball tournaments.
JP: The dances- you mentioned the prom. And I had somebody else tell me they would hold dances there once a week at Second Ward. Is that true?
BH: I don’t remember that. It may have been after I left.
JP: OK.
BH: I don’t remember that. Who would hold them? The school?
JP: The school. They would- I think they said that it would be either on Wednesdays or Saturdays, and they also mentioned going to dances at the Y. Which I think may have been on Wednesdays?
BH: No, I remember going to the Y when I was there, because we didn’t- they didn’t (unclear) the gym. I think they would have to have had to have made a profit by having the gym because first of all, you have the utilities, you have to pay somebody for secur- well, somebody to, just to be there with you, you know. I don’t know, I don’t recall that.
JP: Sure. My last question is, are there any, I guess characters that you remember from Brooklyn. Is there anybody that stands out as, that have really fond memories of?
BH: Oh, yeah. From Brooklyn the area itself?
JP: Uh-huh.
BH: Now, I can remember, I have memories of this person. There was a little guy named Caghouse. And Caghouse was a , we would call him a special person today. I don’t think he had any mental problems or anything like that, I think he was just one who would stand out, like, if he wanted to come to a game and there was line out there, he didn’t stand in the line.
JP: [laughs]
BH: He’s just going go and open the door and go in. And no one would say anything to him about it.
JP: That’s just the way he was.
BH: That’s how he was. He, and, I guess, persons, persons you remember, I remember the Queen City pharmacist. That guy. You know, it was a little old – I was grown before I really knew, I think they sold prescriptions but they used to say Queen City pharmacist, but then I said, “It’s not.” Then they changed it to Queen City Sundries. I know the guy who owned it was not a pharmacist, but they used his name. I guess that and the highlight of the House of Prayer Convocation every year in September. Early September. That, and just people you would just see who you would just remember. But that, that’s, that’s about all.
JP: What do you remember about convocation?
BH: Well, I knew it was a big thing. It was the House of Prayer’s event. They would have their big parade. They would go down to the House of Prayer and have service for a week. They did a big baptismal thing on Sundays, the Sunday of. They had people coming from all over the Carolinas and maybe further, to attend this event.
JP: Wow.
BH: And then the person in charge, whom they called, at one time they called him Daddy Grace, but then they started calling- then he died and there was another person who took his place- I think his name was Bishop Madison or something. But that was the big event in early September. Around that time. As a matter of fact, the house, his house was down the corner from me and across the street from the El Chico.
JP: Was it a pretty big house?
BH: Oh, yes. It was very colorful, red, white, and blue.
JP: Oh, really? Just like the- they’ve got the House of Prayer over on Beattie’s Ford that’s painted red, white, and blue….
BH: They like those colors. That’s synonymous with them.
JP: What do you think that the- do you think there’s a legacy for the Brooklyn community? I mean, do you think that- what do you think people should remember the most?
BH: One of the things I think they would remember in my bracket would be Second Ward School, the gymnasium, the neighborhood in which they grew up. There was one library, that’s in my story. Around the corner on Second Street, around the corner from the movie. We had one library and Mrs. Westbrook- and I asked permission to use her name in my story…
JP: Oh, OK.
BH: Yeah, she still lives in the Brooklyn area.
JP: You know, one of our classmates just interviewed Mrs. Westbrook just recently.
BH: Is that right?
JP: Just recently.
BH: She’s a wonderful woman, she’s a wonderful woman.
JP: Can I- do you mind if I ask you about the library a little bit? Can we keep going here?
BH: Sure, go ahead. Keep on- it’s bringing memories back to me. I might start crying in a minute.
JP: We start, you start remembering everything and then we’ve got all these other things to talk about.
BH: Yeah.
JP: So tell me again where the library was.
BH: The library was right on Brevard Street. It was around the corner from the Lincoln Theater. You see, all the things were in our neighborhood. There was another drug store around the corner called the Watkins Building, and these- it was a father and son, they were dentists. And this was kind of new back then in early the ‘50s on Second Street. I mean, on Brevard Street. And across Second going down there was the, not only was it the library, next door to that was our YWCA. And it was called the Phyllis Wheatley YWCA. I think they would have ladies come in there sometimes, ‘cause, maybe to study or whatever. We didn’t have access to hotels and stuff like you do now, you know? But Mrs. Westbrook had the library and she would suggest books to you, if you’re looking for this. She was just like, involved, just like the teachers were. She wanted us to know, she wanted us to read, she wanted us to understand. She was just like a big sister, I guess you would call it. She’s a very dear lady.
JP: Was she the only librarian in the library?
BH: I don’t know whether she had help or not, I really don’t. She may have had some students to help her, I’m not sure. But she was the main person.
JP: And would a lot of kids from the neighborhood go to the library?
BH: Maybe if they’re doing homework assignments. See, we didn’t have computers and stuff, and everybody didn’t have access to a typewriter. But they- they just had books. First of all, you could go and study in peace. You know, it was quiet there. It wasn’t like being at home where, we didn’t have a whole lot of TV, so you know, where you would be interrupted by something. If you had a serious paper to write, that’s where you went.
JP: I know that library was one of the Carnegie Libraries- the money was Andrew was given by Andrew Carnegie to build the library.
BH: Is that right?
JP: If I’m remembering correctly, I think that’s where the money came from because they had to- since they weren’t allowing African-Americans in the public library in Charlotte they had to build a library that they could say…
BH: OK, OK.
JP: …it is separate, but ‘equal.’
BH: That’s fine. Now, I’m going to talk to you about that equal part.
JP: Sure, talk to me, go ahead.
BH: It was separate, now I’m not going to say it was equal. Just like the school system.
JP: I believe it. Nothing was, right?
BH: They were separate, but I’ll be John Brown if it was equal. Not when I’m having to use raggedy books from somebody else, there’s no equality there.
JP: Absolutely.
BH: No, no, no. They tell you that to pacify.
JP: Right.
BH: But in order to satisfy, you have to make your words true. And that was not true. That was the farthest thing from the truth you’ve ever heard.
JP: And I think that in everything that they did that was separate but equal, of course, it wasn’t…
BH: That was, that was their cop-out. That was to keep you quiet. But then somebody came along and thought like I did that “No, that’s not equal.” That’s what you’re saying, but that’s not equal. If it’s so equal then why don’t the kids from Cherry go to Central? If you’re going- if you’re being fair to your statement. No, no, no the library was just there. And we never had a chance to see how equal it was ‘cause we couldn’t go to theirs to check it out.
JP: Yeah, so there was no comparison.
BH: Absolutely, absolutely.
JP: Well, was the, was the library on Brevard Street, was it a large library?
BH: No. It was kind of small, I guess, according to the people they thought would visit.
JP: Was it just one room?
BH: Yeah.
JP: And, do you think that they had, I mean, a lot of books? Like on- do you remember, I mean, I know you were younger and you probably weren’t reading all of the books in the library, but…
BH: It’s hard to say. I never knew their inventory of what they had. I never knew. I knew that having come from Maryland, that was much smaller than the ones I, I knew about up there. You understand?
JP: Sure.
BH: because up there we had like, a children’s section, and adult section. I remember being a teenager and I wanted one from the adult section ‘cause I could read very well and I understood a lot. But I wanted to get that- we had to have, we had to have a white card to get that book, but my card was just for the younger people.
JP: Was there also a library at the high school?
BH: Yeah.
JP: There was.
BH: There was a library. Miss Penny Perry was our librarian. She had assistants to help her in the library. Yeah, we had one. I think all schools had libraries, the high schools, anyway.
JP: Yeah.
BH: Yeah, I guess you had to do research and stuff.
JP: Well, it’s just great, I think that there were so many different ways to access the information that you needed to be successful.
BH: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
JP: Well, is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wanted to talk about?
BH: No. Will this be edited?
JP: The interview will be archived just like it is. If there’s anything that you want to leave out before it gets put online, we absolutely can.
BH: Would you let me hear it first?
JP: Yeah, I’ll send you a copy of the interview.
BH: All right.
JP: But do you think we’ve covered everything?
BH: I think, I think, I think.
JP: And, of course, if you think of other things that you want to talk about, we’d be happy to come back and interview you again.
BH: I would like to say that along McDowell Street, up there, where the hotels are, those were family homes. And I think I wrote in my article about where things are now, you know, like- and I said like what an environmental change. And it has been a change. It has been a change. I remember where, it used to be Adam’s Mark right there on the corner- that used to be one of those stores, I think that I talked about, where the people would come in and open a store. And it was also a black business where they had, they used to have a lot of shoe shops, shoe shops or shoe shine parlors.
JP: On Stonewall there….
BH: On Stonewall and McDowell, that used to be there. And then, further down, they had an ice house, because everybody didn’t have a refrigerator.
JP: Right.
BH: So I remember you could go and get ice to put- they had iceboxes. And you’d buy a piece of ice and put in that container where the ice was supposed to be. Of course, you had to put your drain there, because it’s going to melt and it has to run out.
JP: So, you’d put the ice on the top?
BH: You’d put the ice- there was- in a receptacle, you know, like a box. And it had two parts, the part for the ice at the top, and it would keep the food cold in the bottom.
JP: I see. So you’d separate it so your food didn’t get all wet. [laughs]
BH: Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. We didn’t have freezers, we didn’t have freezers. We didn’t have freezers. We have a lot of modern stuff that kids should understand and while it, they can’t say they’d be more appreciative, but a long time ago, people lived quite primitively, in as much as we didn’t have, naturally, the things they have today. You know, like, I remember the washboard, when we did laundry, you did that on a scrub board, a washing board they called it. And then people who did have washers and dryers they had a wringer on the washing machine. You put it through and it just [makes washing noise] the clothes would go through.
JP: And it was mechanical? You didn’t have to…
BH: Absolutely. It would just slide through.
JP: When you did the laundry, if you didn’t have a washer and dryer, would you still do it at your house? Or would you go, I mean, was there like…
BH: No, we didn’t have Laundromats then, when I was going to school. You had to go to the laundry, you’d do it yourself. Some people would send stuff to the laundry, but who could afford it? The wages were meager…
JP: Sure.
BH: You know, but, it was something you looked forward to doing. You know, like people used to cook all day. Now they have the microwave.
JP: It’s a different way of life.
BH: Absolutely. Absolutely. Progress.
JP: Sometimes it’s good, and sometimes…[laughs]
BH: Yeah, sometimes it’s good. Sometimes it’s good.
JP: Well, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today.
BH: Sure, sure.
JP: I really enjoyed it and we got a lot of great information for the project.
BH: OK. I’m glad to have helped.
JP: So thank you so much.
End of Interview. Approximately 59 minutes.